Sanctioning Putin: An Interview With Bill Browder

The man behind the Magnitsky Act explains how to hit Putin where it hurts.

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On Saturday morning, I spoke with Bill Browder, the driving force behind the Magnitsky Act, which President Biden has used to sanction Vladimir Putin and several of the oligarchs who hold his wealth in trust. In Browder’s essential book Red Notice, Browder tells a compelling tale of how he and Sergei Magnitsky uncovered a $230 million tax fraud perpetrated by Putin’s cronies, and how Magnitsky’s murder in a Russian prison at the hands of Putin’s thugs prompted Browder to become the force behind the Magnitsky Act. Browder has devoted his life to exposing the corruption and human rights abuses perpetrated by Putin’s Russia.

In this interview, Browder spoke to me about how he thinks Magnitsky would react to the unfolding Ukraine crisis, the strengths and deficiencies of the sanctions imposed on Putin and his oligarch trustees thus far, what President Biden should do next, the importance of disconnecting Russia from the SWIFT payment network, whether the energy sector should be included in future sanctions, how he feels about the possibility that Donald Trump could again be elected president of the United States, and many other topics. The interview has been lightly edited for grammar and clarity.

How do you think Sergei Magnitsky would feel to see a law bearing his name used to punish Vladimir Putin for an indefensible act of aggression against a peaceful, sovereign nation?

Sergei Magnitsky wasn’t a political activist or even a human rights activist. He was just a young, idealistic professional who was patriotic about his country, and he ended up getting killed because he wanted to expose a crime committed against his country. But I think if he was looking down right now, he would be watching Vladimir Putin committing the most grave crimes against his own country and against Ukraine, and I think he would be outraged. And I think he would be happy to know that there was some tool to create redress for what Putin is doing.

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  1. Avatar photo
    Frank Lee

    “When it comes to sanctions, the purpose of those sanctions is to deter Russian aggression”: Antony Blinken

    “The purpose of the sanctions has always been and continues to be deterrence. But let’s also recognize the unique nature of the sanctions that we have outlined.”: Kamala Harris

    “no one expected the sanctions to prevent anything from happening.”: Joe Biden

    Clown Show

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  2. Avatar photo
    Aylene Wright

    Congrats to Patterico aka Patrick Frey on your promotion from Dispatch reader to Dispatch contributor! (As I saw him PRing this article on Twitter, I don't think I am giving away any semi secret identities here 😉).

    BTW if Legendary Podcast Producer Caleb reads this, I would certainly not be averse to hearing Mr. Frey debating legal topics on the AO podcast, either. As one aspect of TD that I think could use some improvement is showcasing some discussions that feature thoughtful disagreement between people who actually disagree. (Sarah trying to basically be an attorney for the Diabolical Other Side at times, isn't quite the same thing.)

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    1. Avatar photo
      Patterico

      Thanks Aylene. You're certainly not giving anything away. I'm not sure I disagree with them about much, though. (Placing to one side a certain famous mid 1990s murder verdict about which I have said my piece multiple times over, and concerning which David ably defended the rational point of view in any event.)

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      1. Avatar photo
        Aylene Wright

        I was thinking more about your differences with David regarding some anti-CRT laws, not your differences with Sarah over OJ. I also get the impression your take as a prosecutor on systemic racism in policing and the overall CJ system is a tad different too. Appreciate your website as well.

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        1. Avatar photo
          Patterico

          Ah yes. You are quite correct on both counts. Without wishing to get off-topic, I'll say only that I suspect our differences on the anti-CRT laws are probably less profound than the wording of the NYT op-ed he co-wrote would suggest. I appreciate the kind words. Any differences I might have with David aside, he's a great man and so are Steve and Jonah. I appreciate what they do here immensely.

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  3. Avatar photo
    Paul Montagu

    Great stuff, Patterico, er, Mr. Frey. Bill Browder saw the real Putin early on, and more should have listened.

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    1. Avatar photo
      Patterico

      Thanks, Paul. That is quite true, as it is of Garry Kasparov, and I learned a lot from Browder's book and from Kasparov's "Winter Is Coming." in particular, the rather bizarre shock of so many people at Putin's action in Ukraine, coupled with a wholly misplaced notion that he Surely Must Have Gone Mad Recently, reveals a widespread ignorance about his true and longstanding evil nature. This is a guy who bombed and killed hundreds of Russian civilians in a series of false flag operations in 1999, just to start a popular war to boost his approval ratings and help him get elected. The evidence of that is crystal clear, and is set out in Kasparov's book I mentioned. What we are seeing is wholly unsurprising -- yet when I pointed it out in recent years I was accused of "Trump Derangement Syndrome" . . . by deranged Trump cultists. Most people are just starting to figure out how malevolent he truly is.

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  4. Avatar photo
    Bill Dyer (aka Beldar)

    Good work, Mr. Frey. Hope to see more such from you in TheDispatch.com.

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    1. Avatar photo
      Patterico

      Thanks, Bill. You never know. Every so often I have an idea that I am convinced deserves more widespread attention than I can manage through my own smallish blog and/or Substack. This is the first place I would go with any such idea, because I consider the ethic here -- of fearless truth-telling and rare common sense -- to be highly attractive. I'm very pleased you liked this one. Browder is a badass whose bravery has made a real difference in this world. It was an honor to speak with him.

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  5. Jim L

    I loved Mr. Browser’s first book, looking forward to reading the second.

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    1. Tom Coffman

      I still enjoy the fact that Bill Browder's grandfather was the leader of the US Communist Party in the 1930s.

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  6. Avatar photo
    Victor Clairmont

    Yes, I do believe more needs to be done against the personal fortunes of Russia’s cronies.

    I do feel every move (like Kasparov) our administration is behind and not leading from the front and letting other nations move and act first, like Germany being literally dragged by world leaders and it’s own population to stop stalling or vetoing weapons to Ukraine or the SWIFT vote (full notice, when Iran was removed under the last administration from SWIFT Germany opposed it and we still did it without them), we as a nation may have to continue the pressure to aid Ukraine and sanction Putin as much as possible short of boots on the ground.

    We are though sending weapons (late) that hopefully will make it before Kiev falls.

    Europe too is sending a mountain of steel (late). If Ukraine holds, the better the tides will swing in its favor. But they are holding against incredible odds.

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    1. Avatar photo
      Patterico

      I did think a common theme Browder kept hammering is the leadership of the EU. Because I am writing for a domestic audience, my questions tended to focus on what President Biden could be doing -- but I noticed that Browder, a citizen of the UK, kept bringing the conversation back to the EU, and appropriately so.

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    2. GregS

      We're only sending weapons now?
      Big if true!
      https://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-led-air-bridge-of-weapons-to-ukraine-seeks-to-shore-up-kyivs-ability-to-resist-russia-11644140852
      Note the date on that report fron WSJ.

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      1. Avatar photo
        Victor Clairmont

        Note also the date for heavy arms before the round you posted:

        https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2017/12/20/trump-administration-approves-lethal-arms-sales-to-ukraine/

        Then note the date Biden started freezing lethal and heavy weapons:

        https://www.politico.com/news/2021/06/18/white-house-ukraine-military-lethal-weapons-495169

        Then check to see how many tank busters was being sold before that, and cross reference it with the Europeans that just decided to get on the bandwagon (late).

        I assumed most people were aware of this, though I was mostly in we "we" meaning Germany and could have specified that better.

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        1. GregS

          Oh oh, let's read these and recap shall we?

          Trump admin approves lethal arms sales in Dec 2017- and then of course, Trump tries to blackmail Zelensky into announcing an investigation into Biden by holding up these arms sales as leverage.

          Biden paused the lethal weapons shipments to Ukraine, and per the article you posted, "But officials on the National Security Council ended up putting the proposal on hold after Russia announced it would draw down troops stationed near Ukraine and in the lead-up to President Joe Biden’s high-stakes summit with Russian President Vladimir Putin."
          So he used the shipments as leverage to get Putin to back off. When that didn't work, the shipments continued.
          Seems prudent to me - what's better than arms shipments? Getting Putin not to invade in the first place, so that the arms shipments aren't needed.

          When you say "we" if you mean Germany, I do think you need to specify that better. We're mostly Americans here, so "we" either means "US" or "the NATO nations as a group." If you mean just one of the countries in the group, you need to be specific.

          It also doesn't matter much if you just mean Germany. Biden has approved $1 billion of lethal military aid to Ukraine in the last year (https://www.latimes.com/politics/story/2022-02-26/us-additional-military-aid-ukraine) - $650 million that has been delivered already, and an additional 350 million approved a couple of days ago.

          Let's not pretend he's doing this "late."

          Sending tons of heavy weapons to Ukraine while Putin wasn't being openly belligerent would have been provocative - and potentially would have given Putin a better excuse to invade. As it is, he has not had an excuse - with no obvious Ukrainian military buildup to point to, with his false-flag operations revealed in advance by our intelligence services, he has had no fig leaf to hide behind.

          I have to say that given how this has all gone down, you really have to stretch your partisan imagination to make an argument that Biden has done a bad job.

          The Allies are unified, Ukraine is standing firm and holding fast for now, Putin is getting bogged down, sanctions are building day after day with every country getting on board.
          What more do you want?

          Remember that Putin's actions here are *irrational* based on the evaluation by every Russia/Putin expert (like Leon Aron on Jonah's podcast) - regardless of their partisan leaning. Responding well to irrational actions is particularly hard, but Biden seems to have nailed it so far.

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            Victor Clairmont

            How was Biden being prudent by stopping heavy arms?

            Putin literally invaded Ukraine???

            That’s not prudent that’s getting punked.

            And again, Biden has been behind Europe in leading on sanctions:

            https://twitter.com/hotlinejosh/status/1498090696451973123?s=21

            So he is trying to speed up. But it’s a retcon to think Biden has been ahead.

            His White House was panicking weeks ago when he said “minor incursion”.

            And he has evidently know for months this invasion was coming as he told the Chinese (another bad move) who then told Russia.

            https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/25/us/politics/us-china-russia-ukraine.html

            Biden isn’t nailing it. He’s falling into it.

            Which is fine if it that randomly works by the way, but he is going to get a lot of blame for late or bad chess moves.

            Especially if Ukraine does fall (hope this does NOT happen).

            And finally, Biden will not cut off buying and funding Russian energy.

            Someone should explain why. It’s billions in Russia’s pockets.

            And if Taiwan can cut Russia off from semi conductors and chips, then Biden should just do the full thing and go all out.

            Gradual escalation is stupid here.

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    3. Tom Coffman

      Isn't the lesson of history that most "out front" leaders are really quick followers of a nascent trend? Take COVID-19...most people curtailed travel and free movement well before lockdown.

      The trend is now in, and leadership is jumping the train. God bless a good and healthy trend, and not a path to broader war.

      I should note I disagree with little you've posted.

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