Nothing to See Here

On COVID, with COVID.

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Last year, Remnant regular Matt Ridley published Viral: The Search for the Origin of COVID-19, which explored the theory that the virus leaked from a laboratory. Today, he’s back on the program to discuss how things have changed since the book’s publication with a suitably COVID-addled Jonah. Has the lab-leak theory become more persuasive? Did the pandemic fuel a backslide in vaccinations? And can Britons and Americans ever resolve their linguistic differences?

Show Notes:

– Matt’s latest book, Viral

– Matt’s previous Remnant appearance

– Matt: “COVID origin case reopened: A lab leak is a legitimate question”

– John Barry’s The Great Influenza

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Comments (23)
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  1. Avatar photo
    Ben Connelly

    Are we supposed to call him Lord Ridley? If so, do we Americans insist on calling him Matt, because we don’t believe in nobility…?

    Great conversation. Always enjoy it when you have Matt Ridley on.

    Hope you’re over covid by now, Jonah.

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  2. Avatar photo
    Jonathan

    There were times in this interview when it seemed like Chinese obfuscation and reticence to share information was taken as evidence of one side or another in the lab leak argument. I think the most we can say is that they are embarrassed by something. It might be the origin of COVID. It could be any number of things like unrelated but equally dangerous/stupid research happening at the facility. Communist/statist countries are notorious for this behavior. It seems likely that the Chinese Communist Party wants to hide something but we shouldn’t get *too* confident yet as to what that is. Interesting interview.

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  3. Halvor

    If China comes clean and

    1.) Matt Ridley confirms a lab leak, then governments will know to instruct scientists around the world to upgrade biosafety protocols and reduce or stop the collection and investigation of viruses. To be on the safe side, governments must also shut down wet markets and prohibit access to bat caves.

    2.) Matt Ridley confirms spillover, governments will know to shut down wet markets and prohibit access to bat caves. To be on the safe side, governments must also instruct scientists around the world to upgrade biosafety protocols and reduce or stop the collection and investigation of viruses.

    If China doesn't come clean, governments will still have to do the same things.

    Yet, I'm hoping it's a lab leak. Leaks can be plugged. Spillovers can't be prevented without reducing human pressure on the natural world.

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  4. Avatar photo
    Victor Clairmont

    I was probably one of the first on these forums to defund the lab leak theory when Covid first started in the USA back Feb/March of 2020.

    Back then, the coincidences and the information lockdown from China spoke roaringly about them trying to stop the flow of knowing what was it’s origin. The New York Post (and I believe Senator Tom Cotton), we’re also first on this bandwagon.

    That, and the Chinese kept shifting the narrative.

    It was a Bat. Then a Pangolin. It’s the Wet Markets, then it must be the fish/fishermen.

    Every goose chase the Chinese sent out, eager politicians, scientists, and other people wanting to confirm their narrative popped up.

    It even was deemed racist (by idiots) to say a lab leaked happened. When people wanted to get to the truth, scientist, politicians, commentators, and many others didn’t care about the origins, and tried to only deal with the effects at the time.

    And I also was mostly fine with people getting vaccinated or not getting vaccinated.

    But I am absolutely 100% proud, I never once trusted China on this issue and viewed anything they said skeptically (yes, I laugh at anyone who parroted the point about China’s death and Covid infection rates in that first year. Zero deaths? Don’t be foolish).

    Because the last three to four pandemics started in China (Swine flu, Bird Flu, etc., Anthrax lab leaked in China in the 1970’s etc.). They have swayed WHO (World Health Organization) to run interference or not investigate the origins at all for years.

    And many people here were happy to ignore the origins, because they were tied up to using Chinese products or have business with the cultural genocide nation, or wanted to signal their virtue by thinking it was wrong to blame the Chinese Communist Party because (again, insert racism or something stupid to ignore truth claims which has nothing to do with those statements).

    And boy, am I being vindicated on this issue.

    Covid -19 was a lab leak. As a proponent of the Lab Leak Theory from the start, unless the communist party allows for actual investigations into the methodology, regulations, scientist involved in the Wuhan Lab, we should smash this in the face of the Chinese party at every turn geopolitically.

    It is not lost on me that China is still locking down people today in China and killing them in their homes to contain the virus, just like at the end of 2019/start of 2020 they wielded homes and people inside, to open them up days later and finding them dead.

    The Communist Party is responsible, and this includes Xi Jingping (who based on recent reporting knew something happened in the lab between November 17-19 of 2019 since he personally sent his health minister to investigate the Wuhan Lab), for almost every Covid death due to their negligence.
    China worked on the virus in it’s lab, covered up the leak, and then lied to the world about it.

    And shame on all the politicians in the West and Scientist that either want to run from the truth or at least don’t want any serious investigation done. We need to regulate or remove Gain of Function research and subpoena via congress anyone who has run interference for it in the US to cover up their own tied to the CCP in the scientific community.

    China silenced and disappeared their scientist. They silenced their citizens. They silenced politicians.

    Of course it’s a lab leak, or else they would have nothing to hide if it were a natural occurrence (I am to believe China cares that much about the market? They literally shut down huge businesses that speak against them). The evidence grows every day. And the obfuscation/silence of China is deafening.

    Either Biden or the next President for 2024 must pound the table on this issue and not let China get away with this.

    Because this will happen again.

    And it will be China’s fault.

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  5. Avatar photo
    The Stray Goose

    19:49 - Chinese government and scientist who put up 'smoke screen after smoke screen'...
    The Chinese weren't the problem. The problem was the WESTERN scientists and politicians who bullied and harassed anyone who suggested that things didn't add up. We expect an assault on free speech from communists. The West is supposed to be better. Politics has infiltrated science and now we're all suffering.

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  6. Avatar photo
    Matt Sherman

    Great discussion. Hope that Jonah recovers quickly. As someone who caught RSV this week I can sympathize being sick during Thanksgiving.

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  7. Payette

    Excellent discussion!

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  8. Avatar photo
    George.Skinner

    I understand why the Chinese government wants to stonewall and cover up COVID's origins - it's tremendously embarrassing for an autocratic system that insists on its infallibility, and in a culture that puts great value on saving face. The initial error seems to have been deciding to cover up whatever happened rather than being transparent about it. Once they took that path, it started compounding the costs of confessing what they'd known earlier.
    Ironically, transparency probably would've saved them embarrassment and earned them praise instead. More resources could've been thrown at this in the early stages, perhaps it could've been contained more effectively, or at the least China wouldn't face the blame associated with the perception of a cover-up.
    I strongly subscribe to Hanlon's law "Never attribute villainy where mere stupidity will suffice." It's easy to believe China elected to cover this up because it's the instinct of an authoritarian state. However, the nature of the regime also means it's hard to discount the possibility that they chose cover up because there were more damning things happening at WIV than mere sloppy safety protocols.

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    1. Avatar photo
      C C Writer

      Your comment prompted me to think of the Tylenol murders in 1982.

      At least in our system, deciding immediately on nothing short of complete disclosure and cooperation was not only the responsible move, it made it possible for the company and the product to survive, and for consumers to continue to benefit from the pain reliever, and for everyone to be safer because of seals on food and drug packages.

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  9. Avatar photo
    3ld3r

    Great episode! You even got my wife (who really dislikes my podcast playlist) to listen to the whole thing.

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  10. Darrylsides

    You had asked a few episodes back about issues with podcasts from The Dispatch skipping. A few months ago I had this issue with nearly every podcast from The Dispatch. The Remnant, AO, The Dispatch Podcast. The problem went on for several months (I thought it was my device and didn’t really realize that it was just podcasts from The Dispatch until you mentioned it). Have not had this happen for about three months until this podcast. It was about 53 minutes in. The conversation skips back about 10 seconds. There is no change to the clock so to speak. The podcast then ends about that many seconds early, cutting off about 10 seconds of the closing. I use Apple Podcasts to access this podcast. This is how the problem presented itself each time it occurred.

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