On the Ground in Ukraine

On today’s episode, Steve has a conversation with Taras Byk, a political consultant and former ...

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On today’s episode, Steve has a conversation with Taras Byk, a political consultant and former journalist now working with the Territorial Defense Forces in Kyiv, Ukraine. What’s he seeing on the ground? How are the people of Ukraine holding up as we pass the second week of Russia’s invasion? Plus, Sarah, Steve, and Jonah are here to discuss the latest fallout around the world and here at home.

Show Notes:

–The Dispatch: “The Past Offers a Way Forward on Foreign Policy”

–Uphill: “The Tug of War Over America’s Russia Response”

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  1. Avatar photo
    Peter Ostiguy

    I keep hearing about this poll, and it's always framed in terms of patriotism, respect for America, etc. David French has written in the past about the changing definition of masculinity, and that's how I see this. I think America is the best country in the history of the world, and I fully understand that in this actual hypothetical, there wouldn't be anywhere else to go- but if my friends and I (late 20s - early 30s healthy men) were sitting around having this conversation, whether or not we would *actually* stay and fight, the convo would revolve around "can you imagine me with a gun?! lolol". Jonah touched on an aspect of this at the very end, but I think it goes beyond comfortability with guns and just whether we view ourselves as fighters, regardless of the cause

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  2. Gabej1989

    Great point on the social desirability bias on the poll

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    Ben Connelly

    Jonah hit the nail on the head when he expressed surprise and outrage that a number of young people would think the sophisticated answer was, “I’d cut and run instead of defending my homeland.” I’m ashamed that there are able-bodied males (I won’t call them men), my age who say they would refuse to fight if America was invaded.

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  4. James Angelichio

    I cannot agree with all your takes on the Stay and Fight vs Run Away poll. If you tell me you are going to stay and fight, I’ll say wait till the bullets fly and then let’s see. If you tell me you are going to run, before any danger comes, I’ll believe you. I’ve heard of false bravado. I’ve never heard of false cowardice.

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  5. GregS

    Once again you misstated the question that was asked in the poll.
    The poll did *not* ask what people would do if America was invaded.
    It asked what people would do "if they were in the same position as the Ukrainians." Which to many many people would mean "what would you do if you were a Ukrainian being invaded by Russia."
    Your analysis is meaningless if you don't understand the question that was being answered.

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    Michael Berkowitz

    There are all sorts of axes along which one can differentiate the world's tragedies that deserve our concern and sympathy, from Tibet to Ukraine by way of Syria and Africa. Given how they differ along these many axes, it's to be expected that we don't engage with all of them equally.

    A lack of sympathy is a problem. A lack of equity in the distribution of our sympathy is not.

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    1. GregS

      What if the sympathy is unequal enough that it is altogether lacking in some cases?

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        Michael Berkowitz

        Then we'd be at the "lack of sympathy" I cited. In any case I wouldn't fault someone for having sympathy for X just because he doesn't have it for Y.

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        1. GregS

          Oh I agree.
          First I'd say no-one is being faulted *for* having sympathy for X, they're being faulted for *not* having sympathy for Y. The fact that they have sympathy for X is used as evidence that they are not incapable of sympathy.

          Second, I wouldn't dismiss the criticisms that people have levied about the difference between our collective reaction to Ukraine and to Syria. I've noticed the different reaction in myself too. And we can make excuses for ourselves (it's different because it looks like Cleveland, it's different because it's Russia, it's different because...) or we can try a little humility and ask ourselves - could we have reacted better to the refugees fleeing Syria? And if so, how can we improve in the future?

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            Michael Berkowitz

            There's good logic in your first paragraph, but I don't think it applies here, as there was plenty of sympathy for Syrians.

            And if everyone asked himself your question I wouldn't comment (I wouldn't know about it), but that's not what's going on here. Here we have Nikole Hannah-Jones accusing everyone of racism because of the outpouring of sympathy to Ukraine.

            There's a guy who has achieved a certain amount of notoriety in my tiny social group. He has a number of detractors -- me among them, though I don't spend any energy on it -- because of his scolding and virtue-signaling. A few years ago he donated a kidney, and I saw comments on Facebook accusing him of grandstanding and of doing it only for the accolades. I wrote back "Are you people 𝘴𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘰𝘶𝘴?! The man 𝘥𝘰𝘯𝘢𝘵𝘦𝘥 𝘢 𝘬𝘪𝘥𝘯𝘦𝘺, for Heaven's sake! Whatever else you think about him, give him credit for that."

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    Kevin Johnson

    This was great, but I am troubled by a harsh juxtaposition. Early on you note, accurately, the stark difference between life and death in Ukraine and “CRT and culture war” focus by some in the US. Near the end Sarah usefully repeats something she has said elsewhere, namely that, whatever one thinks of a given sate law or excessive anti-woke steps, she does indeed care deeply what her child will be taught. She asks if it isn’t important that we teach kids there is something worth defending in the exceptional American project ( my paraphrase.) She stresses ( and I believe, oh yes I do) that her child will get a lot of home instruction to counter false narratives he hears at school.

    But some trends, including the easy dismissal of “culture war” concerns, facilitate an Orwellian attack on classical liberalism which dilutes the very language needed to defend it. When the culture and government destroy the very meaning of “equality” and “woman”, for example, how much reading of Orwell in the dark will be needed to resist trends attacking classical liberalism? Ukraine is worse. Full stop. But this week the WSJ, the leading conservative-esque daily we have replaced “pregnant woman” with “ pregnant person” IN A NEWS STORY. Even some of our brave and brilliant Dispatchers have begun using “equity” without noting that government and the culture use that word now to mean group rights and equality of outcome rather than fairness. Once we lose “woman” and “equality” to hysterical Kendi fans, extreme trans activists and the millions afraid to cross these two groups, good luck keeping classical liberal ideas and values. By all means ridicule “birthing persons.” But let’s not kid ourselves about the huge stake in the cultural revolution. I am as hawkish about Russia as anyone, and spent 30 years in the Foreign Service rejecting ridiculous tropes about moral equivalence between the west and the USSR/Russia. I weep for the disaster we see in Ukraine. But the attempt to destroy values such as women’s rights and equality through Orwellian language attacks isn’t funny and might not be just a passing fashion. We can resist both Russia and the attacks on classical liberalism and language (from whatever side) at home. Both matter, I think, and both distinguish us in ways our kids and grandkids can be proud of.

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  8. Parker

    I got a bit of a chuckle out of the part of the conversation where the team was criticizing the folks who make the cable news circuit for trying to shoehorn Ukraine into their wheelhouse so they can keep getting attention. It occurred to me that The Dispatch team was doing the same thing! We're all starving for news about Ukraine, and the possible outcomes, but The Dispatch crew spent time on media criticism - the dead center of their wheelhouse.

    Not saying I mind. And in fairness, you did bring on Taras Byk (whose perspective was SO enlightening). And I'm sure it's got to be tough in a newsletter + podcast media org to put out Ukraine content that isn't irrelevant in hours, as fast as things are moving on the ground.

    Anyway, love you guys! Thanks for the great pod!

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    J. Eric

    Remarkable interview Steve.
    Thanks

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  10. Pawpaw

    How might age correlate to willingness to take up arms? Couple more points from my experience, expanding what Jonah mentioned:
    There are many fewer hunters in my area (SW VA) than there used to be. Many older guys I know: they grew up putting meat on the table. Breakfast biscuits better with squirrel gravy!
    The urban/suburban migration has deprived many 18-34 year olds from hunter safety classes and culture. They've not grown up when many guys' pickups in high school parking lots included a rifle or shotgun on display in the gun rack. A rural accessory 'just in case' like a spare tire or jack.

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