Jonathan Rauch, the Kindest Inquisitor

In a world increasingly subjected to discussions of Jewish space lasers, fake birth certificates, and ...

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In a world increasingly subjected to discussions of Jewish space lasers, fake birth certificates, and luciferian pedophile cabals, the truth could use a spirited defense. Jonathan Rauch, whose work Jonah has cited on countless occasions, finally appears on The Remnant today to offer exactly that. The two discuss Jonathan’s new book, The Constitution of Knowledge, which explores how all Americans can defend free inquiry and objective reality. Are trolling and propaganda as American as apple pie? Do Marxists run a monopoly on disinformation? And should loyal listeners abandon all hope of Jonah ever publishing that “Liberal Fascism Reconsidered” essay? 

Show Notes:

– Jonathan’s page at Brookings, where they’re always eating candy

– The Constitution of Knowledge, Jonathan’s new book

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  1. Avatar photo
    Brett Myers

    I'm one of those moderate, independent, middling folks who came aboard this good ship a year ago. I had discovered the Remnant podcast first, and it (and The Dispatch) was an oasis in the desert. Giving that context to say this may be the best Remnant podcast I've heard yet. Thank you to all who produce this outpost. I happily just renewed my membership.

    (Oh. And could you guys please consider maybe slapping a couple of 3:1 compressors on Jonah's mic, or something? His levels, even during these interviews, are all over the map at times. I appreciate Jonah's sort of mumbling asides. It's part of what makes Jonah Jonah, but I lose a lot of it in the car. :-) )

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  2. DJ

    Really enjoyed this one. Just wanted to give an upvote for Persuasion.community. They have weekly Zoom happy hours where we have great conversations with people from all over the political spectrum. Also, a group of us started a bi-weekly meeting that’s based on Benjamin Franklin’s Junto concept. See http://www.benjamin-franklin-history.org/junto-club/

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  3. Icarus213

    I want to agree with Rauch on everything, but I kept getting stuck when he attributed intentionality to the former President ("the coordinator-in-chief of epistemic warfare"). He seems to believe that Trump knew what he was doing and was doing it intentionally to trick everyone. I wish I could agree with this (it would provide way more moral clarity to the situation), but I don't, because I know too many people in my personal life with Trump's identical personality. They say something because they want it to be true, and if they are surrounded by enough people who agree and tell them that they are right, they can create their own epistemic "safe space" where everyone can pretend that the thing is true (the election day crowds come to mind, the first example Rauch gives). It's done to make everyone feel good and create an "us vs them" dichotomy ("we know we are right, even if the liars out there tell you otherwise!").

    If the problem was simply that bad people are doing bad things, then the answer is simple: we find them and stop them. But if this is an outgrowth of human beings letting their dysfunctional personalities run away with them while sincerely thinking they are being 100% genuine, this is a much bigger problem, and one that intersects with everyone else doing the same thing to varying degrees. I think the latter is true, and Rauch is making the problem simpler than it is.

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  4. Avatar photo
    Jason Gibson

    Missed a woodrow wilson reference at the end that desperately needed an uruk hai theme

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  5. GregS

    I love that Jonah wrote a whole book called "Liberal Fascism" but cannot bring himself to see that the former GOP President and leading contender for the 2024 GOP nomination is an actual fascist, and that almost the entirety of the GOP (politicians and intellectuals) has seamlessly assumed the role of fascist sympathizer. Instead, he only says, in effect, "I was wrong to say that there American Liberals have fascist underpinnings, the real issue is that there are fascist methods that everybody uses regardless of ideology."
    Only partially correct.
    The conservative intellectual movement turns out to have been mostly made up of people without principles of any kind other than a will to power - so when it came time to choose between principles and power, they chose power without even putting up a fight. Good people like Jonah, Steve, David, and others kept their principles and rejected fascism at some personal cost. But to claim that the situation we find ourselves in is not the fault of conservatism is like the idiots who say, "But *true* communism has never been tried."
    The GOP currently is led by a fascist. And the party is quickly becoming fascist. It won't stop until people of good will make it stop. No-one is coming to save us. And it only stops when massive electoral losses change the calculation that all those politicians and intellectuals made when giving up their principles for a shot at power.

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    1. Avatar photo
      Jason Gibson

      If one defines conservatism as the effort to conserve the American founding then I think your criticisms here don’t quite work

      There was nothing in the American founding among the federalists or the Democratic Republicans that would lend much credence to what we see going on in the Trump camp

      I mean the most big government guy of the founders was clearly Alexander Hamilton and he was one of the writers of the Federalist papers from which we get the idea of checks and balances and the idea of divided government and the federalism that we live with today

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      1. GregS

        I don't see why they don't work. I'm not saying conservatism is bad. I'm saying that the people who were leading it turned out to not actually be conservatives, or good. Turns out they were interested in power and didn't mind a little fascism to get it.

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    2. Photo of Jonah Goldbergcircle-angle-nib
      Jonah Goldberg vertical-nib Author

      Yeah, I think this is very wrong -- and at times unfair -- for a host of reasons. But stay tuned for the piece I'm working on. I think you may be surprised that you agree with me more than you think.

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      1. GregS

        I look forward to it. I don't think I'll be surprised to find that I agree with your intellectual positions - I often agree with you. I think my disagreement is on actions. (BTW, I do stand by everything I said in my last paragraph, although I admit I was unfair in my characterization of the conservative intellectual movement as having been "mostly made up of people without principles." *Mostly* wasn't fair, but it sure did turn out to be a majority.)

        When Liz Cheney was getting flak from the left - after she'd been defenestrated - for previously supporting Trump, you guys reasonably pointed out, that if the situation was an emergency, then we should all act like it. That is, the Democrats should embrace Cheney because the greater danger of fascism was more relevant. That argument cuts both ways. And so far, not one GOP politician, and not one writer at NR or the Dispatch has been willing to say, "We need to embrace the Democrats even if we disagree with them about many things, because defeating fascism is more important."

        Y'all haven't explicitly said what you think is the right strategy for dealing with the fascism currently embedded in the GOP, but from all of your writings in the last few months I get the impression that you guys (i.e. the Dispatch crew) think it's best to let it fade away on its own. I can see the argument for that - becoming another Bulwark wouldn't change the minds of very many conservatives, and you might only be reducing your ability to influence politicians and voters in a good direction, without much benefit to make up for that loss.

        I think that's very very wrong. This is, like the 2016 GOP primary, a problem of collective action. The tide turns if 20% of GOP voters decide that voting for the GOP isn't a good idea any more. You don't need to convince everyone, just a few. And if the entire conservative intellectual community moves in that direction, results can be achieved. Yes, you by yourself won't do much, but the group will. And if every member of the group holds back because they can't do much alone, nothing gets done.

        At the moment, GOP politicians are seeing that their road to success requires being a fascist sympathizer. So they will be fascist sympathizers. This very simple calculation will not change until they find that being a fascist sympathizer leads to resounding losses. And - crucially - I think that won't happen until everyone who isn't a fascist is pulling in the same direction, to ensure that the current GOP does not even get close to power.

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  6. Ted Sisson

    This was one of your best episodes. Jonathan Rauch more than held his own in the Remnant octagon. I appreciate that you are willing to have a strong guest on who will push back and challenge you. It made for an A+ show. Thank you sir.

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  7. Avatar photo
    Ben Connelly

    This was an excellent interview. I may have to read Jonathan’s book. I was especially pleased that you addressed the debate sparked by Joshua Tait’s piece and I thought that the discussion between you (Jonah) and Jonathan was the best and most insightful treatment of that subject yet. Please continue exploring it for the benefit of readers and subscribers and to stand on the ramparts and make a substantive defense of conservatism against the tropes that it’s “a grift” or “authoritarian” or “racist.”

    Anyway, I know in the last podcast you said a reader complained about podcasts going long. I actually like the long podcasts. Going 70-90 minutes seems to allow more time to really hash out issues and have a more in depth conversation.

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  8. Avatar photo
    Angie

    This is just awesome, and I am going to try and get the book in my pile...I like Jonathan...I may listen to this again, which I never do
    As a center-left liberal, the ending where he talks about the sane party of the party ( which are the bigger group) is starting to realize how bad the stuff going on in institutions and there are grassroots organizations leading this made me feel really hopeful

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  9. Niku

    This should be required listening for the failed elite.

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  10. Tony Reiter

    Is it wrong, that my biggest take away was "Jonah, you ignorant slut...."

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    1. Photo of Jonah Goldbergcircle-angle-nib
      Jonah Goldberg vertical-nib Author

      I'll allow it.

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    2. Niku

      yes

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