Our Paramour, the State

Katherine Mangu-Ward, editor in chief of Reason magazine, joins the Remnant for the first time ...

By

Katherine Mangu-Ward, editor in chief of Reason magazine, joins the Remnant for the first time today to explore whether America’s libertarian spirit is still intact. In a moment where Americans are losing faith in authority, the right is succumbing to power worship, and pluralism is becoming increasingly unpopular, how can we avoid a “squishy apocalypse?” Moreover, is hypocrisy really a problem? Why can’t the government love you? And would the United States be a better place if dog catchers were defunded?

Show Notes:

– Katherine’s page at Reason

– The Remnant with Peter Suderman

Keep reading with a free account
Create a free Dispatch account to keep reading Get Started ALREADY HAVE AN ACCOUNT? SIGN IN
By
Comments (55)
Join The Dispatch to participate in the comments.
 
  1. Avatar photo
    Man-Eating Cow

    I listened most of the way through (and quit only because I had something else needing doing) but I confess I was cringing now and then. I went through a libertarian phase at Cow Tech that I definitely recovered from ... by listening to other libertarians.

    And I've had a hard time with _Reason_ even since a majority of their editors (among those who didn't refuse an opinion or choose third party) chose Obama over Romney.

    Collapse
  2. Avatar photo
    Jori Sackin

    In reference to metaphors of politics, you asked Katherine about her favorite and she said "consent" but I just wanted to highlight other prominent conceptualizations and how, in my opinion, it's not about picking one and sticking to it, but understanding the power and limitations of each one.

    You mentioned "government is family" which is one that Lakoff (Metaphors We Live By) points to again and again. In his interpretation you have two different family models "the strict father" and "the nurturing parent" which highlight two views of what a child needs in order to successfully develop. These models are appropriated when talking about government and in his theory conservatives tend toward the "strict father" while progressives go with the "nurturing parent".

    It would be correct to say that both of these are overly simplistic and lead to reliable errors when thinking about how politics actually operates, but that's just the domain of metaphor and you have to take the good (narrowing your focus) with the bad (oversimplifying). There's no third option since all abstract thought is metaphorical. My point would be that thinking you have to choose one over the other is a mistake. Being able to switch between models and be able to incorporate both of them is the best possible world, and I feel the same can be said for metaphorical conceptions of politics. The more the better.

    Other notable political metaphors:

    Government is a Person. The United States government can then be spoiled, jealous, angry, get sick, be healed, get wounded and die.

    Government is a fragile object. It can break, fall to pieces, be pulled back together and be unified into a cohesive whole.

    Politics is a journey. So political parties can be "lost in the wilderness", have to find themselves, get back on track, gain momentum, go downhill, hit roadblocks, etc.

    Politics is Spatial Orientation. We view people on "the left" and "the right" and then locate ourselves in reference to the political landscape. Yes I know where this metaphor originally came from, but the way I believe people actually conceive it is based on directionality than on historical reference.

    There are plenty more but you get the idea.

    Collapse
  3. James Angelichio

    I always hope when Jonah has a libertarian on they will start by defining the major differences between the two schools of thought. They never quite get there. In this episode it was babies and foreign policy, but I don’t think that’s it.

    Collapse
  4. Avatar photo
    The Stray Goose

    This is all such bullshit. Just pathetic. She's such a disaster. Mr. Goldberg is always so, well, REASONABLE and yet he lets her off the hook so often. He even fails to address the differences between Classical Liberals and libertarians (No, they're not the same).
    Mrs. Mangu-Ward helped me remain firmly in the Classical Liberal camp and I want NOTHING to do with libertarians. (she also helps us see why they can't get anyone elected).

    Collapse
    1. Avatar photo
      The Stray Goose

      Whenever a Dispatch host has a 'libertarian' on, the first question they should ask is, "Is taxation theft?" There ya go. That's a significant difference between a CL and a libertarian.
      Also, she mentioned 'open immigration' - another significant difference.

      Collapse
      1. Avatar photo
        The Stray Goose

        When you dig just a little, you realize there's really no 'socialists'. They're really just communists. When you have beers with a libertarian and you follow them down their avenues of reasoning, you invariably arrive at anarcho-capitalism. Both are utopian. Neither is realistic. We should avoid both.

        Collapse
  5. Andrew L

    I loved the conversation on the Afghanistan withdrawal with Peter Suderman, for what it's worth. I'm somewhat disappointed in the Dispatch community that any pushback to the overwhelming "occupy Afghanistan forever" drumbeat was poorly received.

    Collapse
  6. Lori Meldrum

    I stopped listening at the 50 minute mark. There is capitalism and there is cronyism. There is no such thing as crony capitalism.

    Collapse
    1. Photo of Jonah Goldbergcircle-angle-nib
      Jonah Goldberg vertical-nib Author

      Lori, Thanks for listening that long. I don't think this is the right way to think about it, imho. There is cronyism in capitalism and there is cronyism in socialism and in every other system. We use the phrase crony capitalism to describe a certain form of favoritism in capitalist systems. I think KMW and I agree it's bad and we also just agreed to use the agreed upon term for the thing we were describing. I don't see why it warranted turning off the podcast in disgust.

      Collapse
      1. Lori Meldrum

        Disappointment and frustration, not disgust. Thank you for responding.

        Collapse
  7. Yisrael Gale

    I was worried this was going to be dry, boring, and nerdy. But it was entertaining, interesting and nerdy!

    Collapse
  8. Yisrael Gale

    I was worried this was going to be dry, boring, and nerdy. But it was entertaining, interesting and nerdy!

    Collapse
  9. Avatar photo
    Ben Connelly

    I must take issue with one thing Katherine said (maybe she reads these comments, I’m not sure): “north of the individual but south of the state.” I think it a matter of principle that the individual should take the north position and the state should be subjugated to the south. I think we both can agree, though, that society should allow maximal freedom for all people to define their individual vs. state compasses in the way they choose.

    Seriously, I loved this episode! (Okay, I like every episode but this was a particularly good one.) The discussion at the end about children and freedom was quite interesting. Also, I share the dislike of the phrase, “socially liberal and fiscally conservative.”

    Collapse
  10. Wcunning

    This is solidly one of my favorite Remnant episodes of all time. I'm a Reason subscriber first and a Dispatcher second; in fact, I found Jonah through his first interview on what is now The Reason Interview with Nick Gillespie and then followed to the Remnant to get the second half where Jonah interviewed Nick. Keep these crossovers coming! Have Stephanie back! Have Peter back and talk about the administrative state! Have Ron on as frequently as possible! Beyond that, I would love to see more of the distant people on, like Jacob Sullum, JD Tuccile or Damon Root. Honestly, though it would be a stretch, I would love to hear a feminism roundtable with Jonah, Sarah, Stephanie and ENB -- talk about the corner cases and the disagreements in the right of center feminist circles.

    Collapse
Load More