Debating the Israel-Hamas War

"The aim is to make Gaza unlivable."

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Mehdi Hasan, former MSNBC host and co-founder of the media outlet Zeteo, joins Jamie for a heated debate about Israel’s response to Hamas’ October 7 attack and the accusations that the IDF is committing war crimes.

The Agenda:
—Laying out the current situation in Gaza
—The issue of proportionality in the use of force
—Debating casualty numbers from the Gaza Health Ministry
—The feasibility of a two-state solution
—The question of war crimes
—The United States’ role in the conflict

Show Notes:

—WSJ: “Mansour Abbas Is an Arab and a Proud Israeli”

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Comments (228)
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  1. InadvertantObfuscation

    Early in the podcast, Mehdi Hasan suggested arresting and trying terrorists and then said that the USA sent troops to kill Osama Bin Laden. Actually, they were trying to arrest him. He resisted arrest and our people defended themselves.
    If the world court could just put out a warrant and these folks would book a flight to surrender at the Hague, that would make me happy. (I would have them searched thoroughly before allowing them near the plane, however.)

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  2. Aahutchins

    This was a really irritating episode to listen to, although I'm glad I did. Now I understand what a deeply unserious person Hasan is and can spare myself from having to give much regard to him in the future. His tell was his sophomoric, frat-bro (my apologies to better-intentioned frat-bros than him) debate style: a verbal barrage to overwhelm the listener, during which he both moves the goal posts and steals bases (a rare dual-sport trick). "Loud, fast, and vapid" is perhaps a lucrative brand, but it's hardly intellectually satisfying. Jamie did as good a job as I could have asked for in pushing back and trying to have a worthwhile conversation.

    I also wonder why Hasan bothered to pursue US citizenship; he doesn't seem to think much of the United States.

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  3. The Widow’s Son

    Hassan makes deflection an art form.

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  4. Philip.R.M.Hunt

    Mehdi Hasan is too clever by a half. Jamie did better against him than anyone else I have heard.

    Hasan's debate style relies on attacking other people's (Israel in this case) plans / actions / ideas but declining to provide meaningful alternatives. At least, not until the end of the interview when there is no time for the alternatives to be critiqued.

    In the last few minutes, Hasan lays out his plan for peace: Let the Palestinians have immediate full citizenship rights in Israel. Jaime should invite Hasan back to defend this plan. I think the result of this plan will be civil war not peaceful coexistence. As Hasan pointed out, what reaction do you expect from one group people towards those who have had so much death and suffering inflicted on them? I would add: What do you expect from one group of people who are taught from birth to hate the other group and desire their death? Does that all get swept away instantly when the Palestinians get full Israeli citizenship? Frankly, I suspect that Hasan knows the likely result will be bloody civil war and welcomes the prospect.

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  5. Petyrc

    nice to hear an alternative perspective regarding the conflict in the middle east. I would like to hear more historians talk about the history and politics of the region. The past informs the present and I suspect a lot of Americans know very little of the Middle East other than 20 second clip they see on the news. The more historical and political context given, hopefully provides more insight to form a more educated opinion.

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    Blake Fischer

    I’ve never heard so much bullshit spewed in so little time. It was infuriating. You’re a better man than I, Jamie, for not completely losing your cool on him.

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    Kimbaukusfitzgibbon

    The ground rules used in my college debating years which included setting down agreed upon germane definitions would have made this a more meaningful debate. I say this as I saw one of Mr. Mehdi’s obfuscation techniques was to essentially ask Jamie to define something and then essentially try to walk around that definition. That said, as hard as it was to listen to that debate as a Jewish woman, I learned at lot. Including, the same old distortion of what proportional response means and the use of but this is what I saw verses longitudinal data. Thank you for doing this Jamie. You deserve a medal for sure!

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    Evan K

    Well, Hasan has that nice British accent, talks really fast, bridles with 'passion' at every turn, and has an endless slew of 'news items' (can't call 'em facts, for obvious reasons) on tap. I can see why uninformed, Chomskyite-leaning observers would find him hugely persuasive.

    Of course, he's a logic-challenged (appeal to the majority and cherry-picking are the biggies here), demagogic, ideologically blinkered, lying, hateful lunatic.

    Hey, no one's perfect!

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  9. HalinTexas

    Late to this pod.

    I couldn’t finish it. What an asshole. I have no tolerance for rude Gish-gallopers with selective facts and unsupported conclusions.

    Mr. Weinstein, TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR INTERVIEW! Insist that you be allowed to ask questions, without interruptions, or just end the interview. Then, let him answer.

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  10. Adam Rosser

    Late comment- sorry.

    I agree Mehdi was a bit too aggressive and dismissive of Israel’s concerns.

    However, my sense is that the Dispatch team generally are overly accepting of Israel’s position. I think there is enough evidence out there to be sceptical of Israel’s approach and motives.

    While it is reasonable for Israel to act to prevent future October 7s, that is not carte blanche. It is hard to justify so many Palestinian deaths now to prevent future terror attacks which might be prevented by better security response and intelligence. My gut reaction is that the current approach is only proportional to an existential threat. Hamas is not that, whatever it would like to believe.

    That being the case, then Israel opens itself up to allegations of genocide and racism.


    Finally, I agree with Mehdi’s point (also made my many others) that Israel is now radicalising a further generation of otherwise peaceful civilians.

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    1. Dannycash

      The entire population is radicalized already so are they more radicalized?

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      1. Adam Rosser

        Yes

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        1. Dannycash

          how would you scale degrees of radicalization, if you google child soldiers in gaza, there are school aged children holding guns and doing combat drills prior to oct 7. you can also google child books/games in gaza, children are fed Israeli hate with their mom's milk. I'm confused as to what more radicalized looks like?

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