Talking Left, Walking Right

Throwing recent rank punditry onto the back burner, Jonah speaks with his AEI colleague and ...

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Throwing recent rank punditry onto the back burner, Jonah speaks with his AEI colleague and UVA Professor Brad Wilcox, whose memory for statistics crashed over us in a refreshing wave of sheer competency. Tune in for a discussion of marriage, the concept of “family diversity,” and the three things Brad would do if he suddenly became Czar of America.

Show Notes:

–Brad’s page at AEI

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  1. PM

    Finally getting around to this.

    I had intended to mention this sometime ago.

    Downhill is a recent movie about marriage -- a rather serious movie about marriage which was poorly reviewed. I suspect a lot of it had to do with comedy expectations -- not really a funny movie.

    It was a remake and it is interesting how it differs from the original. I was really surprised that it received as wide a release as it did.

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    Julia

    As a parent of kids age 19, 21, and 22, I try to do my part by reminding my kids that marriage and kids are way more important than job/career (which they will probably switch anyway, although you do have to make a living doing something of course) and so they shouldn't rush in but they also shouldn't wait too ridiculously long like some educated young people do these days.

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    Michael Garrett

    When Dr. Wilcox mused about having a say in how Hollywood should portray lifestyles (or at least refrain from glamorizing choices that in real life are likely to lead to unwelcome consequences) my mind went all the way to "The Groove Tube" and its overly long sketch about two drug dealers, one played by Richard Belzer. The punch line was the closing credit. Does anyone else remember it?

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    CynthiaW

    Very interesting discussion.

    I would like to know what Jonah and Mr. Wilcox mean when they say "working class," because this term doesn't seem to correlate with people's having jobs. Do sociologists have a definition?

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    Tracie

    Definitely sending this pod to my brother, who along with our other siblings survived my mom's four marriages and my dad's three. Even in the high divorce era they were outliers. They were boomers who married mid 60s, divorced each other 1980.

    This brother and a sister have each now both stayed married to their spouses longer than my parents' first marriage, so they fit that trend Wilcox described of being more serious about the institution than their parents.

    Could not agree more that it's the best set up for children. To be fair to the boomers, the Romantic unseriousness with which many of them approached marriage was an edict of pop culture at the time. Many bought into the belief that if they weren't personally fulfilled, their children could never be. My siblings and I learned the hard way that children are pretty indifferent to their parents' needs as individuals. The sum is greater than it's parts.

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    Angie

    It was interesting...and extra points for the Princess Bride clip...lol
    I can't imagine marrying someone you don't love and/or doesn't love you...I already did that, didn't work out so well...lol

    So, I don't get the practical part of that...

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    Mudskipper

    As a female boomer, I think that some of what was going on in the 70s and 80s with regards to the divorce and marriage rates was the result of adjusting to new power dynamics between men and women.

    I was born in the early 50's into a stereotypical 50's family. My mother stayed at home and took care of the house and children. My father got dressed in a suit and tie and went to work each day. He also clearly wore the pants in family. I don't mean that he was a tyrant--he certainly wasn't--but he was the decider. Mom fit herself into the role of the wife at that time, put her needs and desires second to her husband and children, and catered to my father. My father was allowed the full range of moods--the rest of us, less so. My father was the sun, and the rest of us planets in orbit around him.

    I saw how my mother squeezed herself into small space. When I came of age in the 70's, I was determined not to have a marriage like that. The trouble is, of course, that most men my age, raised in similar families, not unsurprisingly had expectations that they'd be the sun in their marriages. And, equally unfortunately, I had internalized the "nice girl" imperatives of the time, so I came across as a nice, sweet little planet. I lacked the tools with which to stand my ground, but I knew unhappiness and resentment when I felt it.

    Anyway, that's all water under the bridge for me. I think that younger generations--particularly among the college educated--have adapted to a more equal partnership which helps make their marriages work.

    And my parents? Well, sometime in the 80's and 90's my mother started stepping out of her good wife role and asserting herself more. And my Dad, bless him, accepted it and even I think welcomed it. They are now in their late 90s, and have been their best friends and partners in navigating late old age. Being there for each other in old age is, of course, their reward for sticking out a marriage for 75 years.



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    1. linda

      Hi, Mud! Born a bit before you (40's) but had much of the same social upbringing. Where we might have diverged is that the mom's ran the schools where I lived. Local control was a big thing when it came to schooling and the mom's brought the hammer. If the telephone tree determined a certain teacher was worthless they were gone. There was a lot of fund raising for schools back then but the mom's determined where the money went because they were the ones spending the time and effort running it. They also ran the neighborhoods. Every Tues the women would come to my house packing their ironing boards, and laundry and they spent the day plotting until the kids came home from school. The entire house was filled with coat hangers with ironed clothes. It was those meetings that determined if they were going to keep the principal when he was a jerk. My memory was of a more take charge mommy brigade but only within certain boundaries. There was still a lot of "wait til you dad get's home"..... The words that stuck fear into any 50's kid.

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      Angie

      This is almost carbon copy what happened with me...only, in my case, what happened was as I was very clear about who I was and what I wanted, from the time we met when I was 16 and he was 15, I thought he agreed/got it...we were friends for 7 years and were good friends ( and actually still are), but, once we got married I think he thought I would change miraculously, even though I told him I wouldn't ( children were a big issue, I never wanted any, and it became a moot point when I had to get an emergency hysterectomy at a young age), but, he wanted a traditional wife, (while at the same time wanted me to work full time too, I ended up doing everything from housework to paying the bills, etc etc, working a 6 day week with week ends and some holidays...and he worked a 5 day, day job..and he thought that other than working his only responsibility was mowing the lawn...sigh...plus he was emotionally abusive, though I don't think he recognized he was, he thought it was normal from the way he grew up...we did two years of therapy after 8 years of his always being disappointed in me one way or another, because we both believed marraige was forever and you didn't leave just because things got bad..so I asked for the divorce, we were both miserable..he fought it,even though he was just as miserable as I was...late he thanked me and remarried someone more like what he wanted...

      Sorry, I didn't know this was just an emotional topic for me till this podcast...lol

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      1. linda

        Mowing the lawn is good. One thing I found out from being married for 30 some yrs is that it's always a good thing to make sure one of you doesn't mind doing yard work. My husband and I both hated it.
        Met in Algebra at 14. Went steady in high school and married at 22. Had kids. Paid the bills. Had a lot of laughs along the way. He started having heart attacks in his 40's and continued in poor health for a very long time. Had more heart surgery and eventually passed. I have all our high school junk and prom pictures and assorted nostalgia and of course, kids. Selling the old homestead to the daughter who plans on tearing it limb from limb into some sort of millennial dreamland. I say go for it, girl. Your house, your thing. They are building me a mother in law attachment which is quite near the bedrooms of her two oldest sons. I plan on waging a covert war with them to get even for what their mom put me through in her teen yrs. HA! revenge.
        Sorry about your experience but choosing poorly once does mean you will always choose poorly. You are wiser now.

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          Angie

          That's an awsome story linda ( and so sorry about your husband)..I hate yard work also, so that was one thing I liked...I live in a condo now, where they do it all for me...lol

          And yeah on the revenge...lol

          And thank you

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      2. ROBERT

        Angie, I'm sorry to hear all this and sure hope you've found peace with your life- and if not, I hope you someday find it.
        I know I gush frequently about my good fortune in marriage and I'll be more mindful in the future. I sure don't want to alienate others when I do that. Truth is, it's mainly extremely good luck. I was 22 and she was 23 and we were married less than a year after our first date. We had no idea what we were doing or who our spouse would turn into. I was a sexist and she's not a traditional woman or wife. We've both changed significantly over the years and somehow we've grown together in the same direction. I quickly reformed my sexist notions.
        But again it's mainly blind luck. I shudder to think about how much was luck. My dating choices were very suspect prior to her. I know, but often forget, that many others are not so lucky. And for some it just wasn't meant to be- at least not yet. But don't give up hope because you never know in life.
        I wish for peace of mind and happiness in your life!

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          SEnkey

          I can echo that sentiment, it seems like so much comes down to luck. I really lucked out, but I can't point to anything that I did or chose that merits the luck I have in my partner. I have friends who aren't so fortunate, but there actions were close mirrors of mine. The challenge is passing some of the hard earned wisdom on to the young. It seems from the dropping divorce rate that things are getting better, but how to accelerate that trend among my own social circle?

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    Angie

    Now that I have listened more...I will say that every woman I know that was a single mom to a teenage boy had a horrible time with them...I do think boys particularly need a father figure

    I never knew my bio father, but, my stepdad was awesome and I worshipped him...and he has been gone for 28 years and I still miss him and not being able to call him for advice...

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      Tracie

      My stepfather (the one my mother was married to the last ten years I was home) was problematic, but certainly better than nothing.

      Don't think Wilcox was saying stepparents are bad, just - in the infinite coin toss - outcomes are better with two biological parents.

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        Angie

        My dad was the only person I was sure loved me ( my mom and I have a difficult relationship and always have)...maybe because he chose to adopt me, he didn't have to...and I have 5 younger siblings that came after and never felt any different

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    Angie

    Sigh, this just depresses me...I have never and never will experience this apparently....time is kinda running out and I fear soon I won't even care...sigh
    While I don't doubt the empirical evidence, not a fan of promoting something like love and marriage in a way that demonizes those who don't get married or even worse tries to make those of us feel bad for failing...or maybe even more worse...doing something that has a definite emotional component, as some logical or money, or practical reasons...we could just go back to arranged marriages then no>

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      Mudskipper

      I feel ya, Angie.

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        Angie

        Thank you mudskipper...
        Yeah, it's not like that isn't what I wanted...it just didn't work out that way, and I don't think it was because of anything I personally did...

        My marriage was awful and I stuck in it about 8 years longer than I should have because I believed all this...sometimes it just doesn't work...

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  10. Very Old Grumpy Guy

    Curious about one thing: Do studies show that children of a committed gay married couple do worse than those raised by a single parent?

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    1. Cecilia

      Yes Id love some data on gay marriage and children--I'm surprised Jonah didnt ask about it

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