When Pastors Head for the Exits

Why are so many pastors considering leaving the ministry? Is it the pandemic? Is it ...

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Why are so many pastors considering leaving the ministry? Is it the pandemic? Is it the political and racial polarization? Is it something else? Join David and Curtis as they delve into the growing crisis of pastoral burnout, including a very personal story from Curtis about his own journey to becoming a “former senior pastor”. 

Show Notes:

–Barna Group – 38% of U.S. Pastors Have Thought About Quitting Full-Time Ministry in the Past Year

–Michelle Boorstein – The first Christmas as a layperson: Burned out by the pandemic, many clergy quit in the past year

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  1. Avatar photo
    TD

    Pastoral burnout shouldn't be surprising if a congregation doesn't show pastoral care within itself... if you're looking for a sign of a successful mission, I'd say look for how much a congregation takes the call to minister to the needful within its own walls as well as spreading the Good News beyond. (A particularly effective teacher I knew said she always guided her students to teach each other.)

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  2. Mike Holmes

    One thing missing at the end... piano playing from producer Kris.

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  3. Paul Elliott

    I’m not very good at comments on social media. It would be much better if We could converse with Curtis and David so that it wouldn’t come off as negative as it did. That being said, we always have to mindful of defining and defending the gospel.

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  4. Brendan Bossard

    This podcast prompted several thoughts. This is not meant as a broadside.
    (1) I am starting to believe that a church approaches critical mass at 250 to 300 regular attendees. People tend to hide in the shadows. Larger congregations provide more hiding spots. More hiding spots mean less active workers per capita. It also gives snipers more cover. This naturally leads to heavier pastoral burdens even with good pastoral staffs because complaints always go to the top. Social media aggravates this. Therefore, one way to mitigate the pressure on pastors is to train a solid core of members who can lead new congregations as old ones reach that critical mass. Some call this church planting; I call this sensible growth.
    (2) Small Bible studies are valuable tools to train the above core as well as promote personal fellowship. I think, however, that these have become standard operating procedure for mitigating the pressures on the pastor rather than training people how to interpret the Bible and properly apply it. Too many congregants glom onto a favorite Bible teacher rather than maturing into their own family leaders. Too many continue to drink spiritual milk when they need to eat real soul food. There is too much "Pastor so-and-so is such a wonderful teacher," and not enough "Let me check the Bible out to see how Pastor's teaching jives with it." This creates an idol of the pastor. It feeds pastoral arrogance. It sets the pastor up for failure. Pastors need Bereans in addition to pastoral staffs to keep them humble.
    (3) We need to keep Heaven before our eyes and in our hearts. What is my flag? Who is my President? Who do people see when they see me? Do they see MAGA, BLM, Conservative, or Liberal? Or do they see a cross-bearing, foot-washing, neighbor-loving friend of the Messiah and citizen of Heaven?

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    Clifford from WA

    Good pod conversation. I would say your examples implied the flack towards a pastor always comes from the right or the anti-mask crowd. I've connected with a lot of pastors in my regional association the past year, and most of them took middle of the road approaches to masking and as a result got plenty of criticism and even lost both pro- as well as anti-mask congregants.

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    Bryan Walters

    I really enjoyed this episode, and Curtis' story in the beginning in particular. I do, however, have a modest criticism, as I would likely have left his church over his old senior pastor's teaching (that may be an exaggeration, though his preaching would certainly have troubled me). While I agree that the church should strive for racial/social justice and reconciliation, I firmly disagree with the characterization that this is part of the gospel. My contention would be that this is part of the Law and not the Gospel. Furthermore, as it is the first duty of any pastor to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Tim. 2:15 KJV), the failure on your pastor's part to properly distinguish between law and gospel would have bothered me greatly as a congregant. Under Galatians 3: 11-13, no man can be made right with God through the law, and the law is not of faith. On the other hand, Romans 4 distinguishes the righteousness under the law from that righteousness that comes from faith by grace, and states that it is by this righteousness that we are justified (Romans 4:2-3, 15-16.) So in these passages we have a clear distinction between two ways of attaining righteousness: on the one hand righteousness that comes by the law and cannot make us right with god, and on the other righteousness by grace though faith in our risen savior that does make us right with god. In Romans 1: 16-17 Paul clearly identifies the latter as the gospel. So what then is the relevance of all this to Curtis' former pastor's claim that racial reconciliation is part of the gospel? Under these passages (particularly Romans 1 and 4) to say that something is part of the gospel, is to say that it makes us right with God. Therefore, to say racial reconciliation is part of the gospel, is to say our efforts towards such reconciliation justifies us; which would be a clear violation of Ephesians 2:8-9 (we are saved by grace and not works). That said, we should preach good works including racial reconciliation should we fail to recognize the following verse: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." We must, however, recognize that these good and important works cannot save, and are therefore not the gospel.

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      Clifford from WA

      I very much doubt that Curtis or his pastor are saying racial reconciliation is necessary for salvation, that would be concerning and more than a modest criticism. I think rather they are saying racial reconciliation is one of the effects of the Gospel.

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        Bryan Walters

        I agree. That's why I labeled it a modest criticism. The point I was making is that failure to clearly distinguish law and gospel in our preaching can lead to serious error, even if it is not intended. In other words, we should not call things "gospel" that are not gospel.

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      Pastorfbt

      Preach.

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      1. Paul Elliott

        Bryan, That was exactly my reaction and you stated it better than I could. On the podcast, David and Curtis talk about defining the gospel but never do. They talk about the former senior pastor telling the congregation that he has been preaching to them only "half the gospel," implying that Christ's work on the cross does not save us unless Christians satisfy some additional requirement for racial and social justice. Grace PLUS WORKS (no matter how good) is not the gospel. They are certainly right that Christians are called to work and strive for social and racial justice, but not as part of the gospel.

        As far as the lament that churches are too often concerned with big numbers and productions at Sunday services, I think they touched on other goals and programs that churches can focus on to better serve their congregation and ensure real depth and service. For example, having pastors form (or help members form) small discipleship groups where members study the bible together and hold each other accountable. Large churches need to have smaller programs that help members study the Bible, serve others, and disciple one another.

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          Bryan Walters

          Thank you for the kind words Paul. I don’t want to be hard on Curtis and David. It is a commonplace in evangelical culture to play fast and loose with the word ‘gospel’. It’s not their fault, it’s just the water we swim in these days.

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  7. Richard Kennedy

    Boy, do I sympathize with the need to focus on discipleship and ignore the numbers, but need the numbers. When I was 9 my parents made the decision to chuck a glorious corporate ladder in early stages to become missionaries. Back then, para church missions depended on new hires bringing along their own support, a cut of which would go to the Organization. Rule ONE:You need the money, the commitments from Church and friends and family. Rule TWO: You will NOT refer publicly, or to potential supporters, to money in any way. Sheesh. And my Dad was an Electrical Engineer not know for public speaking.
    But on the trail we went talking of the Gospel to be broadcast ‘round the world and looking for prayer warriors. The support finally did come in. God blessed us for a time in that ministry. But the tightrope ministers, and Dad still to this day, is not ordained, must walk are always challenging. Headwinds, tailwinds, changing wind currents up, down, and sideways. This podcast shared some of those. And the anecdotes at the end of pastors being pastors, being human and caring. And Dad had lay opportunities for that too. The island we were on thought their telephone capacity overloaded with a growing population. Needed a grant to get better equipment. Having quit Western Electric, Dad knew the capacity of the machines and showed the phone company how to exploit more capacity. All the TED talks and all of the push and pull of “consumer” demand will not take away from the power of individuals touching others as the Spirit leads. Same thing with a congregation.

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    Will Roberts

    As a young pastor of a small church I really appreciated this episode. In response to Julie's comments I think David and Curtis have done a fair amount on critiquing the leadership failings of pastors in previous episodes. From abuse scandals to the Rise and Fall of Mars Hill they have covered the moral failings of pastors and the need for pastors to be held accountable. I think one episode focus on how lay people have fallen short is appropriate. They voiced what many pastors feel that lay people dismiss and say, "yeah what about the bad pastors". They covered that. Hear them out. They are speaking my lived experience.

    I am very sorry for what Curtis went through. And I am sorry that this caused him to leave ministry. I too had a mental health crisis in part triggered by work pressure and the January 6th insurrection. I was hospitalized for two weeks. And I had to take a sabbatical to recover any sense of faith and confidence. I was only able to return by the grace of God and the grace of my congregation. So I do feel for Curtis' story.

    That being said I think it would help if mega churches would take a page from traditional church training and traditional churches would take a page from mega church growth strategies. Much of the mistakes Curtis describes Pastors who work in smaller and traditional churches are warned about in such classes as family systems theory. Just because you are part of a young and growing church doesn't mean the culture is easy to change. My mentor once said that changing a church is like moving the baptismal font. If you move it across the sanctuary from one Sunday to the next then people will be up in arms. But if you move it an inch each Sunday no one will notice when it ends up on the other side of the sanctuary. Part of the failure of this church was going too fast and the impatience of leadership. Not that I haven't been guilty of the same thing.

    In my mind there are three fundamental models of church leadership and power. Lay lead. Staff Lead, and the communion of saints. Lay lead churches are where the power resides in the people. Doesn't really matter the formal church structure. This church is like a car with the pastor as the back seat driver. They are in the back seat with the steering wheel. They are expected to lead, to guide the congregation, while looking between the two front seats where the congregation sits. The congregation has the gas and the breaks because they pay the pastor. It is odd to think of a pastor as a CEO. Because the CEO often pays his or her employees not the other way around. Imagine how less patient you would be with changes in your company if you paid your boss yet still expected your boss to lead. You stick around for changes you don't like because you are being paid. Once you know the full consequences of those changes perhaps you stay or look for another job. But the fact that you are being paid gives you the incentive to stick around. But if you pay the CEO that basically means you have no incentive to let him steer up front. You put him in the back seat with the steering wheel, while you keep your foot on the gas and the break, and then you are surprised when things go poorly.

    Then there is the staff lead model. This is when power resides in the staff. Again structure doesn't matter. It is a matter of power and influence. Some pastors are able to achieve at least some level of this. This is like a pastor driving a golf cart around a golf course. A golf resort has all your needs like a mega church has all your needs. And because you are so talented you feel like you built the place. So you drive around with a small group of supporters looking over your creation. But of course you didn't grow the church. God did. And sometimes he puts sand traps in for pastors who get too big for their britches.

    The communion of saints is like a paddle boat with no steering wheel and no brakes. Instead to go straight you must paddle together (clergy and lay people). To turn one must stop paddling and listen to the other. Without cooperation you just end up staying in place or paddling in circles. In this model there is a high degree of tolerance for disagreement and a high degree of mutual effort and getting to know each other. The congregation doesn't hold a pastor's pay over him or her to say they own them. A pastor doesn't hold their education and theological degrees over the congregation to say they know better. It's all rubbish compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus our Lord. When we realize that we are all going to die and no one will care who won what fight it helps put things in perspective and it helps us paddle together for the Lord.

    I too spent time in intervarsity and am familiar with churches that pursued the racial reconciliation conversation. I think it is part of the Gospel. But I think the dynamics between Jew and Gentile are often overplayed to be exactly the equivalent of our race conversations. While Curtis says such conversations don't mean there should be policy prescriptions I don't think that is the case. I think we can say the Bible is unclear about how to apply these principles. But unless we talk about how to fix the problem we are just talking for talking sake. I knew one mega church where the pastor introduced the race conversation. It was not the main focus of his ministry. Instead he preached on it seemingly at random and opened the door for deeper conversations. The main focus was more what can God do to improve my life. I think that is probably going to be the way to go if you want to introduce a hard topic over time. Generally I preach on the lectionary. I have scholars assign me text and preach where the Spirit leads. I think selecting topics may it be race, marriage, or whatever, puts too much of ourselves in preaching.

    My church has been having the masking debate. And I personally am in the camp of vax and relax. If you are vaccinated I don't think there is a rational reason to accuse people who are not wearing masks of being unloving. And for those who are not vaccinated well they probably don't want to wear masks either. At some point we need to ask when we are going to go back to the time where if you gave a person a cold you were not a bad person? You could wear a mask or not that doesn't make you unloving to your neighbor. What is our goal? Preventing hospitalization and death or stopping all risk of sickness? I think it should be preventing hospitalization and death rather than preventing all sickness. Thus I am fine with masks being optional in my church. Yet in recent weeks because people are scared of the omicron surge we have re imposed mask mandates in the short term and will reevaluate in two weeks. I didn't think this was necessary but I supported it as a pastor. I can bear many things. But I can bear being accused of not loving my neighbor. I will also being wearing a mask even if we lift the mandate not because I think they are necessary but because I want to show that I do love my neighbor even though I think the risk is low enough that we no longer need them. I think conversations around masks need to be free of religious and moralizing language. They need to be practical conversations where we do the best we can.

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    1. Sharon R

      This is really good. I don't even agree fully on the mask/vaccinate aspect but that's OK. Your description of the leadership models is really helpful!!!!!!!! I'm in a tiny church that has sometimes been staff lead, sometimes lay lead, and sometimes has been that paddle boat going in a circle, but for a few years it has felt like we've all been paddling together, even though we are very very few. Thanks for this thoughtful comment!

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        Will Roberts

        yeah we are not going to agree on the mask/vax aspect. Perhaps we can accept that and move on with our lives. The first two images I received in a dream from the Lord. the third I worked out thinking about what image would make for a good church. Feel free to share

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        1. Sharon R

          Will, any sabbatical tips to pass on to our pastor? He’s been with us almost 7 years and with our encouragement is taking February off for sabbatical and then another month or two this summer (he wanted to spread it out). We’re a congregation of about 30 or so in Silicon Valley. (Church of the Nazarene)

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            Will Roberts

            I am not very familiar with that part of the country. I am a Presbyterian in Texas. My sabbatical was sort of an emergency situation. So I spent most of my time at home getting myself together. I have benefited from the Catholic and Episcopalian traditions of spiritual direction. Perhaps spending some time in a spiritual direction course? Most denominations don't really focus on spiritual direction and finding balance in life. But Catholics and Episcopalians are pretty good at it.

            I have found the following books helpful to my spiritual growth and renewal.

            https://www.amazon.com/Grounded-God-Revised-Discernment-Deliberations/dp/0819218359/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2M9HFMA9QIQQA&keywords=grounded+in+god&qid=1643041742&sprefix=grounded+in+god%2Caps%2C87&sr=8-1

            https://www.amazon.com/Becoming-Blessed-Church-Spiritual-Presence-ebook/dp/B01EBH580O/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1D1Z07XTRAGSB&keywords=becoming+a+blessed+church&qid=1643041800&sprefix=becoming+a+bles%2Caps%2C84&sr=8-1

            https://www.amazon.com/Sonship-journey-into-Fathers-heart/dp/0994101619/ref=sr_1_1?crid=VKM6WE0Z1EFV&keywords=sonship+a+journey+into+the+fathers+heart&qid=1643041826&sprefix=sonship+a+%2Caps%2C88&sr=8-1

            https://www.amazon.com/Emotionally-Healthy-Spirituality-Impossible-Spiritually-ebook/dp/B01HAKH3IE/ref=sr_1_1?crid=H4E2SZOGYZZL&keywords=emotionally+healthy+spirituality&qid=1643041858&sprefix=emotionally%2Caps%2C93&sr=8-1

            https://www.amazon.com/Love-over-Fear-Befriending-Polarized-ebook/dp/B07JJ2FY2P/ref=sr_1_2?crid=18VQMA8HWPA6P&keywords=love+over+fear&qid=1643041880&sprefix=love+over+fear%2Caps%2C87&sr=8-2

            Sorry I couldn't be more help. It is good of you being a small congregation to love your pastor in such a way. Keep up the good work

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    Ben Connelly

    Good episode. In the spirit of not burning out, I hope that the two of you avoid burn out. Although I’m more worried about Jonah and Steve!

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    Julie from Texas

    While there was a lot of insight in this episode, I also found the conversation frustrating, in that it primarily focused on what congregants are doing that has caused problems for pastors and seems to assume that the hemorrhaging of members is due to a consumer mentality. Now, all of that is true for many churches. But based on a fair number of conversations I've had with fellow believers, here are a few of the experiences some have had during the pandemic:

    • Pastors who'd previously preached about sacrificing to love your neighbor, but refused to adopt a mask policy or even put on one themselves to protect "the least of these"
    • Pastors whose sermons seem as or more informed by their media source as the Scripture they claim is first and foremost
    • Pastors who used streaming to take over the entire service as a one-man show, not inviting others to participate and really be church
    • Pastors who often referred to "faith not fear," thus dismissing the genuine concern of people at risk in their congregation

    Not to mention fellow church members: getting close to someone who was obviously trying to maintain a safe distance; disinviting people who wore masks to Bible study groups; and questioning the faith of those who wanted more security measures.

    On top of that, being at home for long periods of time gave people more opportunity to see what their pastor, church leaders, and fellow members were posting on social media. I've seen a lot of people handle it all beautifully, and I thank God for them! However, some members witnessed leaders and fellow members—people they thought they knew, based on church-related engagement—now posting harsh or cruel content.

    So when members leave a church that doesn't seem to be living out "love your neighbor as yourself," "Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy," and "By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another," it may cause problems for the pastor. Yet, may I suggest such leavers could have a deeper commitment to the gospel than plenty left in the building?

    [Okay, I wrote this whole message before David said sometimes you have the right attitude, but you walk in and you have to walk out. Thank you for that.]

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      Jeff Walden

      As concerns masks and vaccination, I think there's also a good deal of sheer timidity -- that also does not play well with protecting the least of these.

      So for example, my own denomination (Lutheran Church, Missouri Synod) seems to not speak at all (even indirectly) to the abstract obligation to protect others -- let alone to duties of vaccination. And I expect a good number of pastors will simply shy away from the topic rather than speak indirectly to it, let alone encourage it.

      At the very least, reminding others that it is good to act, even at some personal cost, to protect others -- even if there is not an absolute duty to do so in all cases -- ought not be out of bounds. But too many pastors even locally are not stepping up to do that. At least once that point is reached, it can become simply a question of factual discussion as to the extent to which the vaccines are protective (a lot) and in rare cases harmful (to any nontrivial degree, only extremely rarely). And I don't think necessarily the church need take a position on the factual discussion, in all aspects -- but it seems like at least a minimum that in some cases, we ought do things that cost us in order to protect others.

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      Kelvin Tsang

      David answers your concern in the podcast at the 27:00 - 29:00 mins. mark

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        Julie from Texas

        Thanks, Kevin! I did mention it, but honestly, doesn't it sort of support my point for that concern to be discussed for only two minutes in an hour-long episode?

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      Ben Connelly

      I think they would agree with all of that. In last week’s podcast they explained that sometimes you do have legitimate reasons when you need to leave a church, especially in cases of abuse or danger to your health. I guess I didn’t hear an implicit defense of every pastor or everything pastors do in this latest episode. David’s written before about the hypocrisy of people who claim to be pro-life but dismiss 800000 COVID deaths so I’m pretty sure he wouldn’t defend not protecting “the least of these.”

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        Julie from Texas

        I think you're right, Ben. But I guess I just wanted more acknowledgement in this particular episode that pastors themselves can be part of the problem and the reason for hemorrhaging. Perhaps, however, I was listening with my own experience coloring my takeaways. (Interestingly, my husband listened and heard something a bit different from what I heard. So...)

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          Ben Connelly

          I thought that might be the case. Hopefully, you have a better experience in the future. I can understand how if you’d personally experienced some of what you described in your first comment with pastors during the pandemic that you’d feel frustrated. I probably would too in your shoes and it’s natural for that frustration to color the way a podcast like this one would come off. If you email David, they might address your concerns more fully in a future episode.

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