Follow the Loser

Enormous sack of "I told you so"s.

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Jonah’s in a distracted state of mind on today’s Ruminant, but that can’t stop him from rambling at a wholly unnecessary length. Springing haphazardly between subjects, he offers thoughts on the distinction between populism and conservatism, the brain-killing stupidity of our election, and the role ideologues should play in society. He also reflects on his discussion with Tom Nichols about the state of the right from earlier in the week, and clarifies a few key points. In these troubled times, you can’t keep a good pundit down.

Show Notes:

– Mike Pence attacks populism

– The Dispatch Podcast on our stupid election

– The Remnant with Tom Nichols

– The Remnant with Jean Twenge

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Comments (161)
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  1. Clark.Monson

    It's a common misconception that Salt Lake City is still predominantly LDS, but while the LDS Church still exercises an outsize influence in local politics and culture and has its headquarters there, SLC's LDS population is a plurality, not a majority. It's been that way for a decent number of years. And of those who still identify as LDS, a significant number don't practice really at all. So it's likely that the city's population is only somewhere between 25% and 35% practicing LDS. In other words, "Real Housewives of SLC" isn't as far-fetched as it would have been 40 or 50 years ago.

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  2. Gtaylor

    I like Jonah and I like Tom. It was a good conversation and, as Jonah said, they were probably talking past each other at some point.

    But something worth Jonah lingering on that Tom mentioned: Is it that remarkable that those people left unmoored by the Trump era would use the moment to take stock of and revisit some of their positions and beliefs?

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    Paul Montagu

    In so far as Jonah said "in so far as" too much, it was an enjoyable podcast. ;)

    I still view Nichols as one of the good guys who has kept his conservative principles. I don't think it's all that useful to point out what amounts to differences that are more of style, IMO.

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  4. Goatprairie

    I occasionally peruse The Bulwark to read columns that are available to read. Of course, not only are not all the writers disgruntled conservatives, some like Molly Jong-Fast are just liberals.
    But there are plenty of writers who still purport, I guess, to be conservative but righteously heaving tons of well-deserved rocks on Trump and Trumpism. To which I mostly agree.
    The problem is that they fail to do the same to Democrat pols who richly deserve having slime dumped on them.
    My position is a pox on both their houses. Ukraine might be the only issue I agree with Dems on. I disagree with virtually all the other issues they champion.
    But again not all Dem voters are hardcore radical leftists who love The Squad, hate capitalism, and who want to defund the police.
    But Jonah mentioned Mona Charen who I used to read at NR. Mona now thinks all Republican pols are poisoned. Not true. Many have been revealed as spineless weasels, but that does not make every GOP pol an evil ogre.
    And we still have the issues. Trump wasn't wrong about everything, and neither is Biden.
    But it is possible to be angry at both sides. It isn't a case of if you hate one party, you must love what your party is doing. You can throw rocks at both. And keep your honor and sanity intact.

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  5. Charvondersaar56

    After being a registered Republican for 50 years, I lost trust in my party in the aftermath of J6 and am now "unaffiliated". When I heard your guest say he had no trust in the Republican party it rang very true, possibly loud enough that I started listening selectively, because I don't recall Tom endorsing Biden, Democrats, or Democratic policies, but that he couldn't support Republicans, at least not those who continue to embrace Trumpism. It's a crappy time to be a political junkie! Yuval's AEI speech about the constitution and unity without unanimity was excellent and relevant to your ruminations.

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  6. Dancrist13

    Only about half the population of Salt Lake City (or County) is Mormon. Finding non-Mormons wouldn't be a big problem.

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    1. Clark.Monson

      Exactly, and of the half that are LDS, a significant number aren't particularly practicing. The old stereotypical Mormon housewife is a definite minority in SLC these days.

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  7. Avatar photo
    The Bell Tower

    When Ezra Klein was on Ben Shapiro, his demeanor was that of a scientist observing a monkey in a cage. I have no idea if Shapiro picked up on it but this was profoundly obvious and eternally annoying to me. This is the MO of the kind of “intellectual” that Tom Nichols seeks approval from. About Obamacare before the court years ago, Dhalia Lithwick said:

    “The real energy of these challenges arose out of those Tea Party town halls throughout the summer of 2010, in response to a longing to return to constitutional values, states’ rights, and ideas of individual liberty that have been dead for almost a century."

    To the extent that the tribe of TV “intellectuals” are capable of independent thought, this is how they look at conservatism. Dead for more than a century. A glandular wish to return to an extinct past. Not an iota of respect for or even awareness of the deeply held beliefs associated with Madisonian federalism. She’s not only wrong, she’s blissfully and arrogantly unaware of her ignorance, parroting the baloney she picked up from college.

    Tom Nichols is not this kind of intellectual but he seeks approval from that tribe. It’s tribalism but not so much political as professional. The guild of “very important people” is whom he wishes to be associated with.

    He’s sort of the anti-Kevin Williamson. I don’t get the impression that there has ever been a fig anywhere on this planet that Kevin would give for someone else’s opinion of his writing. It’s not just honesty, it’s passion. Everyone at The Dispatch has a level of this but Kevin is just the most obvious and unapologetic.

    Tom Nichols is a brilliant, thoughtful and deeply reasoned man. I don’t think he was arguing in bad faith I just don’t think he has the self awareness required to see his own arrogance. As I said over in the comment section for his appearance, the revealing moment was when he was incapable of arguing the other side of the Ukraine intervention.

    Nichols is ensnared in the Washington rat king as are all of the Bulwarkian former conservatives. This is why I love the pirate skiff analogy for The Dispatch. It’s one of the few places where writers and thinkers are not captured by any of the various and detestable tribes of ideological purists, political or professional.

    Jonah and The Dispatch crowd show up on the CNN’s of the world not because they’re saying approved things but because they are saying important things that can’t easily be denied or ignored. Tom was a great guest and I hope you have him back to continue the discussion.

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      HappyCow

      It's as though you put words to the vague feeling I get about people like Nichols, as much as I like him. Interesting.

      Lithwick lost me for good following the end of this most recent SCOTUS term. The disingenuous, conspiratorial BS from her and her colleague Mark Joseph Stern about the student loan and AA cases was too much to bear. When smart people stick with a tribal talking points, it's time to cut them free.

      It feels like it's too much to ask to have learned people from opposite debate an issue on the merits. I hate it.

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    2. Peter T

      Interesting comment, you raise some points I'd be curious to hear you expound on. In no particular order...

      "...scientist observing a monkey in a cage." - I certainly understand how that could be annoying, but I have to ask: was Klein wrong? I've seen Shapiro enough to think 'monkey in a cage...Bell Tower pretty much nailed it'.

      "She’s not only wrong,..." - is she? OK, certainly painting too broadly, but how many on the right today do you think have "deeply held beliefs associated with Madisonian federalism"? A handful of writers and commenters on sites like this one? From what I can see, the mid-level thinkers on the right do pine for TradCon values. And, as they themselves will grudgingly concede, those values seem to have gone missing as of late.

      To your general point of approval-seeking behavior by pundits, well, yeah, I expect you're right. Nothing special about punditry, though. Approval-seeking by one's peer group is pretty SOP for humans. I suppose your complaint is the (very) particular peer group you see him seeking approval from.

      Like many, you seem to believe that all Bulwark writers are no longer conservatives. Completely sold out, and so on I suppose. I've never seen anyone offer a cogent argument on that point. Mostly just innuendo about trashing Trumpism too harshly and, therefore, giving aid and comfort to The Enemy. (NB: I get that they aren't hard-right conservatives, but seems like they never were. Most of them were always sort of RINO squishes.)

      Finally, since you brought up self-awareness a few times, you do realize contrarian behavior is just another well-worn segment. I appreciate a good contrarian as much as the next guy, but, like cynicism, it's a cheap substitute for real insight. My teenagers remind me of that fact on a daily basis. ;-)

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        The Bell Tower

        Reasonable points.

        I don’t always agree with Shapiro but he isn’t a fool though I might say otherwise about some of his associates. Klein’s vibe that I’m referring to is related to Lithwick’s which was made before this new right was a thing. The Tea Party was an entirely different animal from Trumpism.

        To both points I say: of course they’re wrong. This latest Supreme Court session was an exercise in federalism, liberty and all of these supposedly dead constitutional tenets displayed from arguably the most intellectual institution in the US government.

        Like the midnight judges of Adams’ day, I think it’s arguable that the judiciary shows a lag (but also a maturity) of ideology conceived long before it materializes - and often after such ideology becomes out of fashion so to speak. From that perspective, the courts are now perhaps showing a distillation of Reagan revolution conservatism that is no longer prevalent on the right.

        However, no longer in fashion or prevalent is distinct from dead - let alone dead for an entire century. The ideas flippantly dismissed by Lithwick are ancient and will outlive her, us and this nation.

        I don’t think all Bulwark writers are “sold out” at all and I read and enjoy that material quite often. I have great respect for Bill Kristol though, much like Shapiro, I have less esteem for some of his associates.

        I’m referring specifically to Tom Nichols here and as I said, I don’t think he’s a sellout, I just think he’s arrogant. That doesn’t mean I don’t respect his intellect either, as I already pointed out. The counter to his own Ukraine argument was barely a straw man and his inability to hear Jonah’s point is further evidence of what I’m arguing: he hears what he wants to hear and he respects what comes from the circle of “intellectuals” with advanced degrees and high powered jobs. That isn’t a sellout, I’m arguing it’s a form of tribalism.

        Certainly I could be wrong especially since I’m just trying to guess the motives of a man I don’t know beyond reading and listening to. But that’s what I see from my vantage point.

        As for contrarianism, it surely can be overused just as cynicism. I don’t know what the purpose of that point is.

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        1. Peter T

          Thanks for the great response. Just a few quick follow-ups...

          Re: Shapiro, while I don't think he's unintelligent, I find him to be an often bad-faith partisan, doing his gish-gallop shtick to try to "win", nuance and reality be damned.

          "This latest Supreme Court session..." - oh, you were talking about roughly a half-dozen folks, even fewer than I thought. :-) I took the Obamacare case ref as an example, not the whole point. Your point, and perhaps my response, now make more sense.

          I think your point about SCOTUS lag is spot on. I might go so far as to say it's a design feature.

          As for Lithwick's criticism, as I alluded to above, I was thinking about it very broadly, applying it the right as a whole (not just SCOTUS or a specific SCOTUS case). And, in that sense, it seems we agree. E.g. as you suggest, even the right today, such as it is, is out of step with much of SCOTUS's thinking.

          "I’m arguing it’s a form of tribalism" - OK, understood.

          "As for contrarianism, it surely can be overused just as cynicism. I don’t know what the purpose of that point is" - it was in reference to: "He’s sort of the anti-Kevin Williamson. I don’t get the impression that there has ever been a fig anywhere on this planet that Kevin would give for someone else’s opinion..." - perhaps I misunderstood, but it seemed like you were celebrating his cantankerousness. Again, don't get me wrong, I love his writing. Cracks me up every time. However, he sure loves to gore him some sacred cows and try to trigger reactions.

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            The Bell Tower

            Ha ha ha ha. I was, am and will always celebrate the man’s cantankerousness. You make a good point though and about Shapiro as well.

            “Roughly half a dozen…” Ha ha ha. More than that in the judiciary as many even Trump appointed judges rejected his garbage.

            However, the modern right is surely captured - perhaps for the foreseeable future - by populist hacks and grifters. This new right is a lot more like the European right than the last generation ever was.

            I made this point elsewhere but the Democrats are the conservative party in 2023 America. I don’t think their leadership realizes it or they are in denial over it but they risk losing moderates to Republicans if they don’t find their way to the center.

            I’ve often said I feel like Homer Simpson chasing his kids around Burns’ mansion shouting “Be normal! Be normal!”

            The first party to figure out how to do it will win a lot of elections outside of rural Florida and the Bronx.

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    Bel

    I think the Nichols conversation shifted into talking past each other because Jonah asked Tom a question intended for Jen Rubin, or Nicole Wallace. Tom has been critical of Biden on executive orders, Afghanistan, and speed of approving weapons for Ukraine. He's not a cheap date.

    He doesn't know, because none of us can, if someone like Rubin is purely doing audience service or had a sincere change of heart. I know some voters who, freed from identifying as Republican, abandon a lot of conservative positions. It's possible Rubin is one of them and if so it would be good for her to explain it but Tom Nichols can't answer for her.

    A better question would have been why he takes voting Democrat to the point of rejecting Susan Collins.

    I understand pundits/writers/intellectuals can't burn the GOP down but I think voters absolutely should. I don't know how far to take that, as a voter. I voted for Kemp, even though I don't like his culture war fan service or abortion position but at least he was on the correct side of election integrity and has a hands off approach to GA businesses. But now he says he will support the 2024 nominee. Sigh.

    I don't know if all conservatives agree that Republicans became crazy because they were reacting to Democrats but as a mushy centrist I think that is head in the sand BS. Since I started voting in 1990 the Republicans have had a tinge of growing crazy. The college Republicans on my campus were absolutely bonkers. It was during the era of Clinton's centrism that talk radio took off and Newt's rhetoric took a populist turn. That was long before The Squad.

    For years my husband voted Republican and I told him Republicans were crazy not conservative and he thought I was crazy until Sarah Palin. Since then he hasn't voted for a single Republican, in a doomed one person mission to burn the party down.

    Republicans made themselves crazy by moving further into right wing echo chambers. Fortunately for me he didn't go with them.

    Trump made everything worse but long before 2015 it was difficult to converse with Republican voters, at least the ones I wasn't married to, because it was like talking to a chat bot trained on talk radio and Fox. They weren't quoting consistent intellectuals like George Will. It was parroting of right wing agitators.

    Yes MSNBC is the equivalent of Fox but it never has the audience of Fox so it's influence is muted. There is no left wing media bubble because even the most left wing voters consume mainstream media where sooner or later they come across a
    contrarian voice.

    There are absolutely kooky left wingers but low information voters who vote D don't say crazy things like low information R voters do. Somehow even though they don't pay much attention the populism has seeped in.

    Maybe this doesn't matter: we are where we are regardless of how we got here

    Lastly, as others have noted, it's not the far left that fears Trump. They are crazy enough to want him as the nominee because they think he's easy to beat.It's the moderates of all types that are alarmed because we see the waffling and excuse making on the right that could leave to a narrow Trump win because conservatives over index on left wing crazy.

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    1. Goatprairie

      Fox's audience is only several million people on average. If they get five million people for a particular program, that's huge. Maybe Carlson drew that number every now and then. That's only about one percent of the population.
      That means the great majority of people who vote for Republicans never or rarely watch Fox.
      You sound like my late ,very liberal brother who was convinced that people voted for Republicans only because their minds were poisoned by Fox news. He forgot that numerous Republicans have been elected president long before Fox News was around.
      If you want to talk crazy, then let's talk The Squad, and defunding the police, illegal immigration, cities ruined by the homeless camping (and defecating) on streets and sidewalks, and a whole lot of other issues. I was a Dem for thirty years (voted for Bill Clinton twice) and switched because of the leftward tilt of the Dem Party pols.
      There's no way a group of anti-American/anti-capitalism goofy nuts like The Squad members would have gained traction 30-40 years ago in the Dem party.
      So, while Trump and Trumpism deserve to be trashed, more slime deserves to be poured on the current incarnation of the Dem Party.

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      Kbwilliams54

      Agree with you on all your points.

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    3. Austin from Atlanta

      "There is no left wing media bubble..." I promise you there is.

      "...low information voters who vote D don't say crazy things like low information R voters do." I promise you they do.

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        Bel

        Not at the scale of what is going on with Republicans.

        It's apples and...carburators.

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      2. Peter T

        Sure, but the quantitative difference results in a qualitative difference. The strained false equivalences just aren't cutting it. 'AOC is just like MTG and she controls the Demoncrat party!'. 'Did you hear that crazy thing Barbara Lee said? All the Dems are lining up behind it!'

        Uh huh, sure.

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        1. Austin from Atlanta

          I think these kinds of conversations speak more to our perception and what we choose to focus on rather than an accurate survey of the state or the electorate.

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          1. Peter T

            No doubt.

            Best we can hope for, barring a deep data dive, is that they line up.

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    Ryan McKenzie

    You are a very charitable host with your defense of Nichols, but you are 100% correct that on his part it was a listening issue. I think you could’ve articulated it better, BUT he would often cut you off and answer the question he thought you were going to ask. I like intellectual debates, but I was frustrated
    listening to Nichols on a Dime (witty title to that one).

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    Ben Connelly

    Your stance on this “role of an intellectual” question when it comes to your vote (and mine) and also maintaining a bright line of separation between yourself and politics is one of the things I most respect about you, Jonah. It’s the honest position.

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