Quelle Surprise Agréable

Thomas Chatterton Williams, nonresident AEI fellow and writer at The Atlantic, joins the Remnant for ...

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Thomas Chatterton Williams, nonresident AEI fellow and writer at The Atlantic, joins the Remnant for the first time to discuss race and ethnicity in America. Thomas, who describes himself as “ex-black,” believes we need to “unlearn race” to fulfill the promise of the Declaration of Independence. But what would that entail in practice, and how can we move away from racial categories while preserving a diverse culture? Moreover, why is it beneficial to spend time residing in a foreign country? What are “American values?” And will France soon annex the United States?

Show Notes:

– Thomas’ page at AEI

– Thomas’ latest book, Self-Portrait in Black and White

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  1. Deanjens

    We need to quit pretending that any disagreements between the Richard Spencer crowd and the Kendi crowd are anything but internecine fights between two different groups of race essentialist supporters of racial harassment arguing over petty details.

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  2. Clark Monson

    Great discussion. I particularly liked Mr. Williams' discussion of being an American in Paris. I'm also an expat, though not overseas (unless, like Britney Spears, you consider Canada overseas). It's a weird thing to have lived a number of years in a country not your own, that you love regardless but will never consider your country. And to return to the US and see both the ways it's changed and the ways YOU'VE changed. Also, I'm a pretty rock-ribbed conservative, but I'm with Mr. Williams that not having to worry about losing my basic health insurance if I lose my job is pretty awesome. At the same time, it kills me a little to see my dual-nationality kids identify almost exclusively as Canadian and think like Canadians when I so want them to be Americans too, haha. But, like Mr. Williams, I married a local and her homeland became home.

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    Tricia Stevenson

    I really enjoyed this episode! I've been wanting Mr. Williams to be a guest for some time now - ever since I discovered him on Twitter, I thought it would be great to hear a conversation between Jonah and him; and so it was!

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    PaulH

    Regarding bourgeois values, the black elite in this country (like much of the white elite) have a problem of not preaching what they practice.

    It is commonplace for successful blacks to emphasize the hard work they put in; oftentimes claiming they needed to work twice as hard as whites to succeed. Putting aside the validity of the latter claim, they clearly accept the notion that hard work leads to success -- which is about as bourgeois as you can get. They would certainly be offended if you suggested that the adoption of that value made them any less Black. And one assume that they pass that value onto their own children.

    Yet, you rarely hear members of the black elite push back against progressive who insist that bourgeois values are inherently and exclusively "White". They must understand that such rhetoric (if internalized the black underclass) is deeply damaging to the possibility that the situation of blacks generally will improve. Yet, they are unwilling to push back against the rhetoric. Note that even if one believes in liberal social and welfare policies (in at least some forms), one can still advocate for bourgeois values.

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    Ted Gale

    Wonderful conversation . . . get this guy on again!

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    Ben Connelly

    This was one of the best recent episodes of the Remnant. Between this episode and the two-parter with Continetti, the Remnant has been hitting it out of the park recently. Please have Thomas back soon.

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  7. Michael York

    Nothing profound to add, but it was a truly wonderful podcast

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  8. Heidi Seward

    This was great! I stumbled across Thomas Chatterton Williams at some point early in the pandemic, and I found him to be such a refreshingly sensible, independent thinker. Fun to hear this conversation!

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    Denise Cote

    Wonderful conversation. I'm also grateful we got the outtake with his child. The only problem is I'm going to be buying another book lol.

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  10. DJ

    Really enjoyed this. It's unfortunate that our cultural moment still often forces Williams to be the "black guy explaining things" but he's right that things are much better than the times of Baldwin or Murray.

    Last year Pod Save the World did an episode with Terrell Jermaine Starr, who has a podcast called Black Diplomats. While they touched on race, it was mostly just an interview with a guy who has opinions about foreign policy.

    Regardless of what you think of his views, an interview where race is just a curiosity and not The Most Important Thing is another good sign of progress.

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