The Danger of Surrendering to Populism

Too often it is immune to reason and contemptuous of debate.

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Over Memorial Day weekend, Michael Flynn, who briefly served as Donald Trump’s first national security adviser, appeared at a QAnon-affiliated conference in Dallas. During a Q&A session, an audience member asked, “I want to know why what happened in Myanmar can’t happen here.”

What happened in Myanmar was an old-fashioned military coup.

Flynn replied, “No reason. I mean, it should happen here.”

The crowd cheered both the question and the answer.

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  1. Avatar photo
    Pastor Yoda

    It reminds me of a web comic by Zach Weinersmith author of Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal, which beautifully illustrates Jonah’s point. On the hand, you have a female politician trying to run a campaign arguing, logically, stringently, and cogently, that her ideas are the best for governing the country. On the other hand, we have veteran politician who has been winning elections cycle after cycle. She’s the intellectual taking the arguments seriously, he’s the populist, who knows how to push the right buttons. How many people at her rally, where she wants to talk about the dangers of certain restrictionist immigration policies? Two. How many at the veteran politician’s rally? Thousands. What is his slogan? Quite simple really: “More betterness, less worseness.”

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    Brian Ruff

    I’m sure I’m missing a lot of the finer points, but Yuval Levin’s “The Fractured Republic” hits a lot of these notes, with the thesis that America’s natural state is one more fragmented than many in our living generations remember. WWII and to a lesser extent the Cold War helped galvanize our country into something more cohesive. Absent an existential threat, we revert to type. I honestly don’t know how you cure a fractured nation without unifying it against some outside danger. People are tribal by nature. We’re not more evolved than our founders in that respect.

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    Synchronize Your Dogmas (Bill B)

    "The core problem afflicting the right—and to a great degree, the country—is that the elite surrender to populism."

    I'm not sure how Jonah is using "elite".

    Certainly there are coteries of right- and left- who enjoy being edgy and ironic and sometimes even leverage those "low talents" into some position of responsibility or a FOX hosting seat. Is Stephen Miller an elite, Rush Limbaugh, Sebastian Gorka, Mike Flynn, Michael Anton, Donald Trump? Were they ever elites?

    Most always struck me as third-stringers who, to quote Arendt, enjoyed a "temporary alliance... with the mob." that "rested largely on this genuine delight with which the former watched the latter destroy respectability.". It rested on "its conviction that history, which was a forgery anyway, might as well be the playground of crackpots, must be added the terrible, demoralizing fascination in the possibility that gigantic lies and monstrous falsehoods can eventually be established as unquestioned facts... and that the difference between truth and falsehood may cease to be objective and become a mere matter of power and cleverness, of pressure and infinite repetition.".

    Even more disturbing is that it describes a certain elite among the Progressive Left in it's explicit rejection of truth. In other words, a bottomless cynicism in service to ambition that informs ideology. As Jonah rightly suggests it comes from below as well; the politically ignorant, florid and sophomoric. It is a moment when the broad middle is being stressed and increasingly seduced by the raging siren calls of extremism and cynicism. It's more important than ever that we must insist on not being drawn in, remember who we are and ensure that the center holds.



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    Khal Spencer

    As far as Flynn, my suggested viewing is Seven Days in May. I think it is available on various outlets. I think we can still count on most military leaders to tell Gen. Flynn where to stick his ideas, but perhaps one cannot always count on that being the case. My real question is how did someone as unglued as Flynn rise to 3 star rank? Of course in the movie Dr. Strangelove, Jack D. Ripper rose to Brig. General but one hoped that was only in the movies. And Ripper was a one star. Is something wrong with the military or did Flynn hide his lunacy till retirement?

    I don't know of any elites in political leadership right now. Most on the left and right (and the center has not held) disappoint me as being shallow thinkers more interested in drumming up support for their color flag. The 2020 Dem. primary was a clown car. Both the left and right warn of impending doom if we don't immediately address their version of existential threats, whether it is climate change or uncontrolled immigration. While both are problems, both are whipped up into frenzied panic. Neither side can balance a checkbook, which makes me hope and pray that Modern Monetary Theory works. I'm not convinced.

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      Narwhal

      While he was serving he likely didn’t have much time for anything but the tasks in front of him. I would think this was especially true when he was in the military chain of command. Once he no longer was and he found himself with a lot of free time on his hands ...

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    rlritt

    It's not that new. That's how Mao and Stalin came to power.

    It's not always bad until it is. Populism helped the French remove a bloated and greedy monarchy, until they started getting rid of anyone who disagreed.

    My fear at what Flynn says is how many military leaders secretly think the same?

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      Narwhal

      What do you mean by how Stalin came to power specifically?

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    C C Writer

    Excellent concise summary in the last few paragraphs of what the problem in our politics is and how we got here. The real problem is not that there are populists running around loose or that there are leaders willing to respond, nor is the real problem any specific populist. It is that structurally the things in the system that kept extremes in check were so taken for granted that we let go of them and it's taken some time to figure out that that was a bad idea. How exactly to fix it isn't perfectly clear, but a good start would be for the situation to be widely acknowledged and discussed.

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    George.Skinner

    What doesn’t seem to have occurred to Michael Flynn is that in a state where a coup is considered a realistic option, people advocating for a coup also tend to end up in prison or simply disappear when the authorities get wind of what they’re saying.

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      Man-Eating Cow

      Michael Flynn knows very well that his is empty talk and that the people who might otherwise imprison or "disappear" him also know his is empty talk.

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    CynthiaW

    "Why aren’t more conservatives and elected Republicans more horrified by this and stuff like it?"

    Maybe "more conservatives" are, and you just don't realize it. Say I'm horrified, as opposed to non-horrified, by Flynn's advocacy of a military coup. What would I do differently today?

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      Matt J

      Call your congressperson, tell them to stop supporting that stuff. I'm sure they'd be glad to speak with a normal person, they see so few of those on the Hill.

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        CynthiaW

        Good idea.

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      Jerome Bohl

      Back Liz Cheney's effort to have the GOP be honest about the 2020 election.
      The small number of supposed Conservatives willing to do this is troubling?

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        CynthiaW

        Okay, I've done that.

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      Campshrop

      Conservatives are horrified. Republicans are not. These two animals are on distinct evolutionary paths.

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      Aylene Wright

      Unfortunately many NTs are responding by actually advocating for authoritarian actions themselves, only directed against the Bad People, as that's certainly justified as a way to protect the Good People. So, Kinzinger, the Vindmans, and I am sure others are calling for Flynn to be court-martialed and locked up for his comments. While I often find Amash a tad too self-righteous, I do agree with him opposing this trend.

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      1. @fakeJohn

        We just need to find really good leaders and empower them by any means necessary to get the bad people! Of course we'll make them pinky promise to give that power up once the bad guys are taken care of. What could go wrong?

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        Jen

        Kinzinger responded to Matt Gaetz’s stupid 2A comments by saying they weren’t protected by the 1st amendment and then used the awful fire in a crowded theater analogy. 🤦🏼‍♀️

        I think the fringes and nut jobs need to be ignored. Ben Sasse called out MTG in that Atlantic piece he wrote in January. He correctly said she would continue to embarrass herself, the country and the Republican Party. He also told Politico Matt Gaetz is not an adult. But he doesn’t respond every time they say or do something stupid.

        I wish Kinzinger would do the same. The nut jobs are just trolling for attention and he shouldn’t give it to them. And it leads to bad takes like saying something isn’t protected by the 1A or someone should face court martial because they’re a loon who said something nuts. The problem for Kinzinger is his feedback loop now mostly consists of praise from the Left. Eventually it seeps into your thinking and not in a good way.

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          Man-Eating Cow

          The "fire in a crowded theater" analogy has a very disreputable pedigree, if you look into its history. I doubt any SCOTUS justice would consider it good law today -- 1A issues are the ones the Court is mostly likely to be unanimous on lately.

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            Cornelius O’Brien

            The comment - which is probably good law, if applied to similar facts - was obiter dictum authored by Oliver Wendell Holmes. The actual case (Schenck) affirmed the conviction of a Socialist who distributed pamphlets advocating objections to the draft for WWI as a "clear and present danger" to national security. Schenck was effectively overturned in the late 60s in Brandenburg v. Ohio, in which the Court overturned the conviction of a Klansmen who advocated violence in defense of the 'caucasian race' at a cross burning.

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        CynthiaW

        Good point.

        It's kind of funny that Jonah took this approach, because he's written in the past about how he finds it annoying when others expect a certain reaction to a situation and get all pissy when the reaction isn't provided. "Why aren't you as upset about X as I am?!!!?!"

        Okay, I'm more horrified. Now I'm going to Walmart because we're out of frozen corn and to the bread outlet because paying full price is for chumps. But I'm more horrified!

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        1. @fakeJohn

          You have a bread outlet where you live? Color me intrigued.

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            Man-Eating Cow

            We have a bread outlet. It's named "Smith's Food and Drug".

            Oh, wait. You meant _good_ bread. My bad.

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            CynthiaW

            We do. It's a "Nature's Own" clearance outlet. Bread there typically costs about 1/3 its retail-store price.

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          Jen

          Yeah I find this column to be at odds with things Jonah has said in the past. I would hope people have more important things to worry about than nutty comments from Michael Flynn and Sidney Powell (both of whom have serious mental issues).

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    Israel Bigelow

    The times I've brought up Flynn and the QAnon wing of the Republican Party to fellow Republicans, it's scoffed at and treated as Left-Wing nut picking. It's like they take the common Democrat indictment of the GOP (that conservative ideas are a cover for racism and white supremacy) and they flip it on it's head to say, against all evidence, that there isn't an extreme wing of the GOP that does believe those things. They think if we just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist then it won't have any effect on the national discourse. The problem with that discourse is parallel on the left, the populists/extremists wage more influence on the direction of their perspective parties then either side would want to admit. Case in point, Mike Flynn may not be an influential power broker or leader in the GOP, but party members (like Allen West from the Texas GOP) are showing up at his rallies to tap into the populist rabble-rousing he wants. This is a dangerous escalation that can't be ignored if conservatives want to protect the Constitutional order of the American founding fathers.

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    Jen

    Michael Flynn and Sidney Powell are cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs and no good Republican or conservative should waste two seconds responding to their nonsense. The fact that The Bulwark obsesses over every stupid thing said in MAGA world just shows how unserious they are and how they don’t really care about conservatism or the Republican Party.

    I think the real concern is the serious politicians and others within the conservative/GOP movement who want to push this movement into a class based populist direction. What people like J.D. Vance, Tucker Carlson, Sohrab Ahmari etc. believe; some of the bills Josh Hawley has introduced; Ted Cruz, Marco Rubio and Rick Scott threatening to punish corporations; Ron DeSantis’s complete disregard for the first amendment all worry me a lot more than the nut jobs in MAGA world who have no power and should not be taken seriously. I think those who really care about conservatism as an idea or political philosophy should ignore the crazies and focus on those who can do lasting damage to the cause.

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    1. James D

      Michael Flynn was *the national security adviser to the President of the United States*.

      The fact that this guy is out there advocating for a military coup is extremely alarming and demands a vicious and immediate rebuttal.

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        Man-Eating Cow

        Vicious and immediate, yes. Unconstitutional, no.

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      Bill Nelson

      The Bulwark is serious, and has a necessary place in the discussion. Though they are necessary, they will not lead to a solution on the republican or conservative side. The only solution I support is to continue to support conservative ideas, not to support progressive positions.

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        Aylene Wright

        I think it's also fair to note that in order to justify abandoning not only the GOP but conservatism itself as a principled move, certain Nevertrumpers HAVE to portray the institutions they left behind as rotten to the core and beyond redemption. And to be fair many of them probably sincerely believe that. But there's some motivated reasoning going on as well.

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          Bill Nelson

          Conservatism focuses on reform of necessary institutions, but you have to identify what is an institution. For example, the IRS, during the “scandal” around granting tax free status to political organizations. Conservatives have concerns about the political independence of government agencies, with some reason. Progressives are more inclined to want to direct change through the government while conservatives will be more inclined to engage in commercial activities. Conservatives will desire to reduce the power of the federal government, and most governments, to allow the civil society more latitude. This also reduces the importance of elected positions. Suppose the election of a Senator really didn’t matter, neat.

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            Narwhal

            “Suppose the election of a Senator really didn’t matter, neat. ”

            I disagree. That should always matter. But, that doesn’t mean it should be framed as so consequential that catastrophe will follow if the wrong person is elected.

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      Aylene Wright

      I am also concerned that too many people are being distracted by the bright shiny objects that I find aptly describes the likes of Gaetz and Greene as well. IMO even Jonah often seems to pay too much attention to them, because they are easy to discredit as kooks and loons.

      I am also concerned that some Nevertrumpers are reacting to the perceived authoritarian threat of Trumpists by becoming authoritarian themselves. Kinzinger claiming Gaetz's recent statements aren't protected by the First Amendment, or that Flynn deserves to be court-martialed. I get ths feeling he'd be happy to see both get locked up, but how is that really different from the "lock her up" chants about HRC? The Vindmans are going down this route, too. I think Cheney might eventually as certainly she showed such tendencies herself at times during the War on Terror, such as trying to purge all DOJ lawyers who had ever "defended terrorists".


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        Jen

        Yep. And that happened all to often during the Trump era. Matt Lewis has a piece in the Daily Beast about Michael Flynn saying it’s a warning about the MAGA violence ahead. Pete Wehner wrote something similar in the Atlantic. It’s sad to see them go down this path, especially when as far as we know there is no credible threat of violence coming.

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          Klar1990

          Maybe, maybe not. I think it’s safe to say that the “we” I think you’re referencing, represents the general public and the general public would most certainly not be informed by any enforcement authority of violence forthcoming from domestic insurrectionists.

          Michael Flynn is backpedaling his statement; he meant it exactly as stated.

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        Bill Nelson

        Gaetz and Greene are hardly shiny.

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          Aylene Wright

          Maybe I should have called them squirrely instead?

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