Telling the Truth about Christian Institutional Sin

Joining David and Curtis this week is special guest Nancy French. In a departure from ...

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Joining David and Curtis this week is special guest Nancy French. In a departure from her normal work as a best selling author, Nancy has spent the last 2 years investigating cases of sexual abuse and institutional coverup at one of the nations largest Christian summer camps, Kanakuk Kamps in Branson, Missouri. Going beyond mere reporting on what happened, our hosts help frame the sad situation at Kanakuk in the broader context of the calling we all have to first tell the truth about the institutions we engage with, but also to work toward their repentance and repair.

Show Notes:

–Frederick Buechner – Telling the Truth: The Gospel as Tragedy, Comedy and Fairy Tale

-Nancy French (USA Today) – Survivors, ex-employees say Kanakuk Christian camp ‘ministered’ to its sexual predators

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  1. Avatar photo
    Tracy

    I just had a strange colliding with this story that is very telling as to the response of the camp to its attendees. I was searching today through old Facebook posts for something in particular and happened to come across a post from 2009 in which a friend stated to me that they had sent all of their kids to Kanakuk camp. Having heard this podcast, I asked if she was aware. Her response? "we have of course had direct communication from the camp and it was a very limited situation." Yes, that is what they would say, no doubt!! I am suddenly feeling very very sad.

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  2. Thomasking72

    Thank you for this powerful podcast. I wish Nancy continued courage and perseverance to pursue this sad story.

    A couple of thoughts:
    1) I am a little surprised that one thing which was not mentioned as a takeaway was simply to become more informed about sexual abuse and to push any institution we are apart of to review or institute policies to prevent and to report potential unsafe or illegal sexual behavior.
    2) With regards to the SBC report, Kanakuk and other abuse scandals, it seems like there is a lot of uncertainty of when and how to pass concerns or warning signs of abuse to another institution when they call for a reference check or to proactively warn them of any concerns. Maybe this could be a future podcast topic to help us know how/when to pass on such information? Also to let us know what precautions should be taken to not run afoul of privacy laws which could open someone up to libel/slander litigation?

    Thanks for this podcast series. It is a great way to make my commutes feel shorter!

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  3. Roger Ellis

    Excellent podcast. Worries me when fellow Christians put themselves ahead of Jesus Christ, particularly pastors and leadership. Seems like unless the Camp cleans house it should be closed.

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  4. General Darden

    First, thank you Nancy for your unflinching pursuit of Truth when it comes to Kanakuk. The story you have shared of the suffering of victims gives God glory by giving voice to the oppressed and hope to the downtrodden.

    Second, I am a Kanakuk Dad - sent both of my boys there between 2001 and 2012, as well as a trustee son and his best friend for five other years, together. Kanakuk (K-1 and K-Country) were amazing experiences for the boys, and per their statements to me since I first became aware of this (thank you Nancy again!) last summer, they neither saw nor experienced any activity they considered sexually inappropriate. I have met Joe White many times, including on visits to the Chicago area (where we lived at the time), and we've sponsored Kampers through Kids Across America.

    But as an experienced businessman and as an elder in a reformed church and as a believer in law and justice, I struggle with the depiction of the conveniently misplaced responsibility for non-disclosures and omerta-like requirements of silence. God does not tell the poor nor those suffering to sit still and be thankful and be silent. He encourages those with power to have mercy upon them, to bless them with a voice, and to seek justice and love mercy and walk humbly. He is not glorified nor exalted by the pride of the organization in keeping its good name while blaming others.

    I could quibble with sone of Curtis's and David's statements here and there in the pod, but they are minor in comparison to the wonderful message of liberating truth Nancy's reporting brought to the pod and the story.

    Non en cautus futuri. Semper veritas.

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    Mark B

    As an Episcopalian I found myself reciting the collect for proper 20 in our book of common prayer:
    Grant us, Lord, not to be anxious about earthly things, but to love things heavenly; and even now, while we are placed among things that are passing away, to hold fast to those that shall endure; through Jesus Christ our Lord, who lives and reigns with you and the Holy Spirit, one God, for ever and ever. Amen.
    It is my prayer for all people who find themselves at the inflection points in institutional strife.

    Also, and less charitably this seems to me to be the purest essence of the good news Curtis was pointing to in the episode.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DQTCS6aWRSc

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    Nate Dunlevy

    This was the best and most important episode of this program to date.

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    Collin

    My high school, which is Catholic, had a milder version of the Kanakuk situation. A long-time priest and teacher was removed without explanation. Years later, after the archdiocese of Chicago was raided by the FBI and news storied came out, he was "revealed" to have been secretly taping boys in the locker room showers after athletic events. Everyone I went to high school with knew this was happening. It was an open joke. Both the school and the church swept it under the rug.

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  8. Jay Harris

    This reminds me of the "High Places" which were mostly used to worship idols. We need to tear them down.

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    Cthocas

    How on earth is it legal to sign an NDA for a minor that binds them when they reach majority?

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    Reed Benet

    Wow, what a disheartening story at the Kamp, but I appreciate you all bringing it to us. And how brave Nancy's story of taking it on to deal with the truth. I do hope her efforts leave no lasting trauma with her, David, and the family. I can't imagine spending two years on this without there being some lasting detritus.

    Some thoughts that come off of it. and I mean no offense or to do any harm, just hopefully facilitating the truth also, and excuse any presumption but through writing attempt to work through the spiritual and psychic issues thankfully only indirectly involving myself...

    1. Curtis' witting or unwitting seemingly more than the norm repetition of "(this mess) "proves God's existence" (or maybe it's what is being said by Curtis to Nancy in private because she's obviously suffering, and I guess such when not really deeply examined brings some comfort) reminds me of the apocalypse cults that when the apocalypses don't happen say that our survival proves that God saved us, which is the type of rationale gymnastics I have a trouble with. I guess if you're a committed person of faith not willing to deal with the evident truth or possibility of at the least those gymnastics being done, you've got to go the quickest way towards understanding versus truly mull how horrible things can be or are?
    2. Perhaps the more direct issue is whether there can truly be a G-d, or if there is a G-d whether he/she/it/they is just plain indifferent to us even if we're made in the image, or perhaps we're dealing with a tough love G-d who isn't really here to save us from ourselves but truly gives us free will (and perhaps doesn't want to be worshipped but rather to just fix ourselves), how can such terrible things happen? And yes, I know, this is one of life's great spiritual and philosophical questions regarding why the innocents suffer so. As a Jew, and either just because going after us is convenient for demagogues and their willing followers, or because we're really part of a cosmic battle between good and evil as some of my evangelist friends have described their world/existence view, perhaps it's not entirely unreasonable for this type of stuff being a wake up call to the fact that we all might be completely fooling ourselves? Would it really be so bad to say we're really alone, other than those we love or respect or act considerately to? I also acknowledge that it's easier to be without a country and be a purist, and now we have Israel that has to deal with reality in all its wonderful to ugly complexities.
    3. Please excuse adding the politics, particularly given how Trump is so clearly an Idol, and given how a huge percentage of so called Christians are his followers, perhaps Christian organizations and the Christians themselves are terribly, terribly and I hope not but I'm looking for some signs otherwise that these orgs and individuals aren't irredeemably broken, and thus the Idol of Christian organizations must always be dealt with with great skepticism both within and outside. Yes I paint a broad brush here. But Trump is so clearly horrid, so easily understood. And with the Southern Baptist Convention in chaos, Liberty University, the Trump at/from the pulpit growing mega-churches, the clear dog whistles of racism, anti-semitism, etc., I wonder again about 2. above. Or maybe there's something about Christians that makes Christian organizations so ripe for abuse, said both literally and figuratively. Note that I hear from some Orthodox Jews that non-Jews are essentially animals and only subject to the pre-10 Commandments Noahidic Laws. I'd be less open to that if non-Jews acted less like animals.
    4. Correct me if I'm wrong, but my Jewish brother Jesus' great innovation that he brought this world, and which was the next step from Judaism's fundamental but it can be quite cold innovation of justice, is L-O-V-E? My dear Christian brothers and sisters, please save Christianity by pointing this out to your sisters and brothers again and again, and perhaps do something about the "rabids" in the process?
    5. I am to my nature optimistic. But I'm optimistic because I can imagine the worst case scenarios and they rarely happen. When I went into the Marine Corps and wasn't, as I accepted, killed or worst maimed I was in essence born again and totally unafraid. And I figure if there's a God worth worshipping, we plan and do while he/she/it/they laugh.

    Just some thoughts.

    Thanks for the chance to think about and relay all this. Great podcast! Life and thoughts changing!

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    1. Joy

      Thanks for putting words to lots if my thoughts. Love, kindness, compassion, and empathy should be the go to position for us all. Religion that does not actively promote those things without judgment does not reflect the teachings of Jesus I was taught.

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        Reed Benet

        Thanks for your kind words, aptly named Joy! I really love the comments at The Dispatch. An island in the storm of much insanity.

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        1. General Darden

          Wow. A lot packed into your thoughts and writings, there.

          I am a Christian. I believe there is a God who is active in His creation, that His existence is made evident in His creation (Romans 1) and that He sent His Son as a sacrifice for man's sinful rebellion. I am also of the Reformed faith tradition (sometimes called Calvinists) who hold that Yahweh's plan for His creation is purposeful. I believe He loves His creation, but sin separates the Holy from the sinful, and that therefore there is no way I alone can be good enough or earn His favor and attain salvation. I can only attain that through acceptance of that call to repent, to live as He has directed in the Bible, and that includes a call to a more holy (and less sinful) life.

          Note that it is not a sin-less life. Or a perfect life. Or a judgment-free life (from either God, my fellow Christians, or my neighbors). I am clearly not perfect.

          What I am is forgiven, and secure in a faith and belief that even when I do sin, He is able and willing to forgive me of my sin if I confess it to Him and ask for that forgiveness. It is granted - freely and immediately.

          Because of that faith, I hold Christian ministries to a very high standard. They are the public faces of God to a society that is skeptical of faith -- or outrightly hostile to it. And when they fail - when men and women act sinfully, as their natures are inherently - they become evidence to the skeptics and the critics of the hypocrisy of the faithful, the church and religion in general.

          I am highly educated (Phi Beta Kappa, MBA with Honors, a company CEO), yet I also know and recognize that my faith is a gift. It provides me a framework for looking at the world, understanding the motivations of the actors within it, and a perspective on an eternal value and meaning to work and relationships and emotions I invest in or feel every day. It provides me a basis for loving others because I am loved. It enables me to have anger at the injustices I view and provides motivation to correct them. It enables me to love dearly my many gay friends with whom I disagree and to work hard to honor a call for fidelity in my marriage. It has enabled me to give money and funds generously out of the abundance of a heart that is blessed and to deny myself some of the benefit of my work that others say I should enjoy.

          I share this not to beat my chest or to stand on a pedestal and proclaim my righteousness. To the contrary, I keep my name and identity private for this reason: it is Christ who has enabled me to love, to give, to rejoice in friendship with the sinner and the saint, and to love my neighbor as myself.

          And it is why I wrote separately that my disappointment with Joe White (whom I know and to whom I entrusted children for their care and nurturing for many years) and the Kanakuk Kamp staff: they failed to honor the call to righteousness, to accountability, and to purity that they preached. They defiled the name of the Lord while seeking to hide behind it as the basis for getting teenagers to sign lifetime non-disclosure agreements. It is why they lawyer up instead of bending their knees in humble prayer to confess their failures.

          That judgment is not always recognized by those outside of the faith. But I assure you that God is not mocked: what Joe White and the Kanakuk team have sown, they shall also reap. This is the beginning of the beginning, and sadly it means that a great summer experience for lots of kids may fail.

          But to use an oft-cited description: the fish rots from the head down. Joe White has a lot of confessing to do, but I fear his pride and sense of importance to the Kingdom and the progression of the Gospel has clouded his thinking. God is not honored with disobedience. He is honored (Micah 6:8) with humbleness and humility, a seeking for justice, and a love for all.

          Reed, I hope you read this and can understand that God is quite real. And he will judge Kanakuk, Jerry Junior, the SBC pastors, and others quite harshly.

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            Reed Benet

            Such a wonderful reply! Thank you for your words and your witness. Far be it from me to rank anyone, since I run into my fallibility multiple times every day, whether it's related to religious or self-imposed (in my case stoicism or a combo of Judaism and Buddhism which I've heard called Juddhism) commandments, but how I wish all people and particularly Christians were as committed, reflective, and as well spoken as you. Kind of random but your story and witness kind of reminds me a very positive version of my interpretation of the story of Job which is that how wonderful it would be and well worth the torment to truly know there is a god. How wonderful for you that you are certain of that. As for revealing myself, I welcome you or anyone reach out to me via LinkedIn. I'm CEOing a venture capital backed startup and in regard to that and all other aspects of my life I could always use more friends. Or if The Dispatch would hold the Dispatch Cruise like I keep advocating, there would be a whole boat of us. My goodness are there great people in this The Dispatch community! https://www.linkedin.com/in/reed-benet-607b744/ Steve says he's all for the cruise, subject to it being a lot of work to pull off, but he says Jonah isn't so hot on it. I went to Jonah's 500th episode podcast and his story about Trump's insult of him regarding pants and being confronted on the dock by all that certainly shows his psychic wounds that might be holding us back. Peace to you Brother General Darden and to all!

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