Two Dangers: the Contrarian Mind & War Porn

This week David and Curtis start with confession time, each looking closely at the challenges ...

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This week David and Curtis start with confession time, each looking closely at the challenges of contrarianism and pride that impact all of us in our modern discourse. They unpack the tricky balance between knowing, certainty, and humility, including the possibility that we might be wrong. 

In the second half, they dive into the spiritual challenge of staying attentive to the war in Ukraine without just watching it as a form of perverse entertainment. In another tricky balance, our hosts offer suggestions for staying connected in ways that are less personally destructive and more spiritually healthy.

Show Notes:

–French Press: “What the Russian Invasion Teaches us About the Right”

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  1. Avatar photo
    CW

    RE: Curtis' comment on War Porn. That's an interesting insight - we actually call it "Pred Porn", after the common ISR platform.

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  2. Sharon Simmons

    David French, I have been meaning to write to you for several years now….actually since 2015 when I first discovered you. Donald Trump had come on the scene and I, as someone who had consumed every episode of The Apprentice and Celebrity Apprentice, was very concerned. So I went looking for conservatives to see how they were perceiving this person who I knew from watching the television shows did not have conservative values or the values I associated with what was best for our country. In doing that search I discovered you and Jonah Goldberg. I have been reading you ever since and I was delighted when you started The Dispatch…and subscribed without hesitation! And even more delighted with your Sunday morning newsletter…a must read for me every week. I am a 62 year old African American Christian who, as a self employed commercial real estate attorney, generally sides with certain conservative values, particularly those economic in nature, but generally votes as a democrat because the republicans always screw it up somehow (in my opinion) when it comes to racial issues and issues related to the economically disadvantaged and the marginalized. (That’s a whole other discussion but I suspect you can guess my issues.) Anyway, I have wanted to reach out to you for several years but what has finally prompted me to reach out to you is the Good Faith podcast I just listened to with David Brooks and Peter Wehner (both of whom I love by the way). In that podcast, you speak to how you have been criticized for writing in, and speaking to, secular, progressive outlets. And I wanted to share with you - in fact, felt led to share with you - something that I realized a few months ago. My church last year - an African American church with a very solid, thoughtful and well read African American pastor who is also a fan of yours - did a study of the minor prophets. Maybe a month or so after doing that study, I read one of your Sunday newsletters and I realized, David French is a modern day prophet. With that realization, I added you and your family to my prayer list. I pray periodically for your strength to continue what you do and for you and your family’s protection from the schemes of the enemy. YOU ARE A PROPHET. As I know you know, this is not about predicting the future but about telling us where we as believers are following the wrong path…about pointing out where we are being sinful…about pointing out where we have “lost the plot”. And God has given you a platform to do that. I just wanted you to know that it is important that you keep doing what God is leading you to do….that your message is reaching believers and not just the secular, progressive types. The story of the prophets in the bible is not particularly…happy. But I know you understand the sacrifice and the risk that God is calling you to. I just wanted to let you know that there is at least one other person outside of your circle of family and friends who also gets it. Keep doing what God has called you to do. And I am guessing that I am not the only other person you are reaching with your message. Oh and so you know, the impact you have on me doesn’t just sit with me. (I have to tell my pastor this as well.) I really try to impact others with what I have learned from you. In fact, I have 2 friends in my circle who are, if not QAnon, QAnon sympathetic. My goal is to keep them in my circle and hopefully, through demonstrating love and grace as well as challenging their “truths”, steer them away from some of their bizarre and inaccurate thinking. I say this to say, the seeds you have planted in me will produce fruit beyond me. Just wanted you to know. And so you know, this is not a label I have given to others. In fact, just when I thought I should give it to others, I have read something that they wrote that kept me from giving them that label. This is not because I disagreed with them. Rather it is because of that indefinable something. To break it down, the Holy Spirit didn’t say to me, this is a prophet where He did say that with you. I just want you to know that I am not frivolously giving you this label. Keep up the good fight of the gospel!

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  3. Avatar photo
    Charles

    I really enjoyed this one.

    Like others, I recognize the contrarian in myself. I’ve been politically homeless since the Obama years. Curtis is right that there’s a feeling of liberation that comes with rejecting both parties. But pride is also there. It was easy to feel a sense of being “above party” akin to George Washington’s reputation.

    But at some point it occurred to me that being anti-party was essentially my party. I realize that I rarely scrutinize attacks on the two-party system or positions that fall outside the binary divide (contrasted with my instinctive skepticism of all partisan claims by Dems and the GOP).

    It’s a struggle to constantly check myself and force myself to be open to others’ rightness and my own wrongness. Or at the very least to remember have grains of salt when listening to politically contrarian claims.

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  4. Normie Osborn.

    I finally listened to the Trailer after listening to a few episode, and I guess my question is:

    If Curtis is Goose why is he still co-hosting after the first episode?

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  5. Douglas Anthony Perkins

    I enjoy this podcast and agree with the other commenters that this one was particularly good. I especially appreciated your points on the roles humility and diversity play in discernment.

    I had never seen the hierarchy of cult leader -> learner before and loved the way it contributed to the discussion. It reminded me of the mystical theology of mystery and apophaticism.

    David mentioned that the legal system is set up to produce discernment using politicians (instead of learners). If I understand Rauch (The Constitution of Knowledge) correctly, this is somewhat generalizable. I would love to hear you riff on that a bit more in a future show. For example, what are the downstream institutional and cultural effects of relying on one system vs. the other, and how do/can/should the two systems interact?

    An observation. I am a retired intelligence analyst and spent several years immersed in AF/PK message traffic. It took its toll. I agree with Will's comment below; remaining engaged does not require immersing ourselves in images of war while doing so does real spiritual damage. I honor the point you made about being willing to make sacrifices for love, but also believe that we are called to play different roles depending on our vocation and circumstance (e.g. I'm an experienced analyst with strong ties to Ukraine, but as a priest in the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the USA, I believe I am more valuable helping pastor people through moral injury and trauma than commenting on the war itself).

    Thanks for the great show and God bless all your work.

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  6. Brendan Bossard

    The five-point scale that Curtis introduced was very helpful to me. I would place myself in the critical thinker sector, although I am also tempted to be contrarian. I express my contrarianism by digging my heels in whenever someone tells me to do something against which my gut reacts. I am really trying to stop and listen first, but it is an instinct with me that I am having a lot of difficulty overcoming. I am lucky my wife is very patient with me!
    On war porn: I experienced something very similar to what Curtis described. I spent a lot of time watching YouTube videos on the Russo-Ukrainian war until about a week ago. I would describe it as something like watching a massive highway pileup as it progressed. It was something that I did not want to watch but could not stop watching. I finally realized what was happening when I watched a video of a Russian tank being blown up in Mariupol. The title was something like, "Russian tankers flee from exploding tank," only somewhat snarkier. I saw the ambush and the initial explosion; then I saw *one* tanker miraculously escape. He started running from the tank to cover when a second explosion hit the ground just behind the tank and about thirty feet from the tanker. The tanker hit the ground and then started crawling with one arm toward a wall. I felt his desperation. I suddenly realized that I was watching what effectively was a snuff film. I felt so horrible, helpless, and sad for the tanker even though he was an "enemy." I feel wounded now as I think about it. I have not had much taste for these videos since then except from a birds-eye view.
    I have "Saving Private Ryan" and "We Were Soldiers" in my library, but I do not know if I can watch them again. I wonder, now, whether war movies have gone too far. Video games are going too far too. I kind of miss the days of "The Longest Day." Maybe we need to be less "authentic" and more--more--I do not know. Maybe it is good for me to feel these things. Maybe it is good to understand the effect that war and cruelty have on man, and how it mistreats God's image. Lots to think about.

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  7. Avatar photo
    Kelvin Tsang

    Really liked the hierarchy- "...contrarian, critical thinker, and listener."

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  8. Avatar photo
    Will Roberts

    Think this was one of the better episodes. A good and thoughtful conversation.

    I think the posture of a learning is not, "I might be wrong," but, "we might be wrong."

    I think an agnostic posture towards right and wrong in a conversation is better than a posture that assumes that one is wrong at the outset.

    Such a posture in my experience has created a shamed and uncertain existence as I tried to bend to the whims of others, assuming that they were right and I was wrong. Taking a circumspect view that right and wrong are determined by the context and the situation and we all know only in part as Paul said, I think is more helpful and humble. It is not humble to admit one is wrong when one is not wrong. It is true correctness is not the fruit of the spirit. But love is and as Paul says love rejoices in the truth it does not rejoice in wrongdoing (1 Corinthians 13:4-8). For example I have found David's logic around being pro-life to be impeccable compared to pro-choice arguments that tend to flow from illogical arguments based on emotion and an unwillingness to discuss the philosophical status of a fetus. I also found David's recent discussion on transgender athletes on French Fridays to be somewhat obvious and impeccable logic that was said with understanding and compassion. Clearing in these circumstances the wrongness falls on the other side. And having a attitude that insists on viewing oneself as wrong limits effective argumentation.

    But having an attitude that the ultimate Judge is God and thus we should take an agnostic attitude to all knowledge is helpful. As Paul said do not proclaim judgment or condemnation till the day of Judgment. (1 Corinthians 4:3)

    For example I think David could be a little less contrarian on his service in Iraq. This Ukraine conversation has brought up a lot of old feelings about the lead up to the Iraq war. Not that the reasons for going to war in Iraq were as crazy as Putin's reasons for going to war in Ukraine. But to a lesser degree Iraq was based on false reasons that officials could have known were false at the time if they had done their due diligence.

    In regards to Curtis' work on the Vaccine. I do think this issue has become a Shibboleth of sorts. One in which the facts don't matter because the Vaccine has become a symbol of the moral good. I have been triple vaccinated. Argued for the vaccine from the pulpit which probably caused at least one of my members to leave my church. So I am not anti-vax. But I am inquisitive and have listened to vaccine skeptical people like Robert Kennedy Jr who had an over three hour interview on the Megyn Kelly show. It is hard to make heads or tails of his arguments for to quote Judge Jackson, "I'm not a biologist"....... And his argument basically guarantees that you will listen to him because the people who do have expertise are in on it. Megyn tried to fact check some of his claims but there were so many it would have taken another show to do so and many experts would fail to engage with her honestly I fear because they would be offended for even being questioned.

    That being said I did learn things from the anti-vaccination movement that I didn't know before. Mainly about Vaccine Courts that give companies immunity from prosecution and deal with claims of damages from vaccines through a secretive and unaccountable process. That and the fact that the VAERS reporting system is not scientifically verified means there really isn't any large scale way of confirming or debunking wide scale vaccine injuries. While there have been studies with some vaccines certainly that doesn't include all vaccines. And the lab is different than the real world. The FDA has recall mechanisms for many drugs but vaccines are given blanket immunity (pun intended) and I find that to be disturbing. I think Kennedy's arguments are not great. Even if the preservatives in vaccines have some potential risks you are far more likely to be exposed to larger doses in your everyday environment than from a vaccine. Plus Rna vaccines don't use the traditional metal preservatives that people are worried about.

    Still if there is nothing to hide I don't think setting up a system of unaccountable fake courts is a good look. This debate could be put to an end to with a disciplined and scientifically verified reporting system. The fact that there is none is also troubling.

    So I am generally pro vaccine. I think the benefits outweigh the risks and probably always will. That being said I don't think the Government is interesting in knowing the risks if there are any because that would cause a lot of trouble.

    It would be nice if public health officials talked like learners. But if they did we would criticize them as well. People like certainty. They think of talk of probabilities and progressive knowledge as "flip flopping". People are unwilling to think about risk management in terms of this disease both on the left and the right. So we are also the problem in that we demand a certainty that science doesn't provide yet scientist know they must simplify the picture else we won't take them seriously.

    In terms of how we should watch war. I don't have a problem with war movies, because no one is actually dying. But I see how watching actual combat footage on youtube for 45 minutes can make you feel slimy. The root of the word pornea in the Greek means a transactional exchange. Exchanging sex for money devoid of context. Or exchanging people's lives for the thrill you get for watching it. I think part of the problem we have in our culture we hype both sex and violence to idolatrous levels. Being a conservative Christian I waited till marriage to have sex. Now that I am married I look at modern media and it just strikes me as odd that we would spend so much time depicting strangers having sex. I thought I was missing something wonderful that was akin to heaven on earth. Sex is great but it isn't that great and I don't think that is because I am doing it wrong. Most of my wife's and I relationship does not rotate around sex and romance the way the media portrays it. It rotates around friendship and the daily work of being together and loving and respecting one another. When I watch Hollywood depictions of sexual relationships now it just makes me sad. I don't think it contributes to promiscuity just like I don't think video games and war movies don't contribute to violence. But I do think it contributes to rose colored glasses about what these things are about. Romantic comedies probably contribute to divorce because they want relationships to be about what they depict but they are not. War movies probably contribute to greater shock by young and idealistic soldiers shock when they actually take a life. I don't think media leads to an increase in promiscuity or violence but I do think it leads to an increase to disillusionment and shock when we go through these things. They are depictions of what we want these things to be about but they are not what they are about. So perhaps war movies don't cause you to watch combat footage on youtube. But they contribute to your expectation that you won't feel slimy after you do. If you knew that death would make you feel slimy in the first place you probably wouldn't have clicked on the next link.

    I think there is a way to be engaged in the Ukraine and not watch war at all. One can read stories about it, listen to podcasts and testimonies, and see occasional still pictures. I think it is telling that the Gospels didn't depict Jesus crucifixion in the way Mel Gibson did in the Passion. We don't need all the details to get the picture. We don't need all the gory details to be involved.

    I would add as I have before that I consider "The Rise and Fall of Mars Hill" to be failure porn. And I think it is important for contrarians like Curtis and David not to go so far in their critique as to engage in failure porn. We don't need all the details to get the picture.

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    1. Normie Osborn.

      This comment isn’t long enough.

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  9. M.B

    I have never been much of a contrarian type, yet I think understand its alure that because under the human condition *No*, has the power, *Yes*, has the freedom.

    We humans love our power, to be at the head of the heap. Of course, it is an often a fake and clay foundation.

    It is matter of interest to me that under the never yet resolved matter of free-will vs. predestination that a *No* before the very God of all power and creation is somehow, respected. Though I should say it would be wise to me to do so without great fear and trembling.

    I am not trained in deep theology, and philosophy so this might be an ignorant statement, But the idea helps be to check my motivation whenever I am inclined to say and be contrarian.

    Is this power that I can rightfully utilize?

    In essence, the first attitude of Adam and Eve to God was *No" and after mom and dad often the very first the children of Adam and Eve hear and begin to return is,*No*.

    I think more saying yes to humility, would go a long way to resolving the power dynamics that humanity is determined to engage in.

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  10. Avatar photo
    Loren Roberts

    Very informative.
    In regards to humility. In my own experience and from what I read in Scripture the lack of humility is the beginning of every sin.
    Look at Luicer, his fall was pride. Since that fall he, Satan, has used pride to motivate every sinful act.
    When you mentioned cult leaders, they are always right, I never had a thought until then, that’s Trump exactly. I always thought of him as an egotistical tyrant. I guess he’s both?
    The porn of war. I looked at the video but only that one. Porn is one sin I have resisted.

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