What Do We Mean By ‘Progressive’ or ‘Conservative’?

The moral and pragmatic case for pluralism.

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We toss around words like “conservative” and “progressive” without really understanding – or agreeing on – the meaning of these terms.  

This week, David and Curtis discuss how these labels simply don’t work when applied across both theology and politics.

How is the equivocation surrounding these terms misleading and therefore damaging to Christian discourse? Can politics be used as a proxy for faithfulness? If so, when?

Join David and Curtis as they dive deeper into the word “progressive” and “conservative” and attempt to provide clarity on this common, important conversational terminology.

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  1. Homier.Sealers.02

    David and Curtis,

    In a world that is as described in his little book, On Bullshit, by Harry G. Frankfurt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Bullshit) swimming in “bullshit”, your podcast(s) are, for me, wonderfully thoughtful and Truth-centered.

    When you were going through the list of “mainline” churches, I was struck by the omission of the Lutheran Church. I am Jewish Christian who, after experiencing many of the “movements” described in the PREFACE of the book (below), Authentic Christianity by Gene Veith and Trevor Sutton (https://www.christianbook.com/authentic-christianity-lutheran-theology-speaks-postmodern/gene-veith/9780758658302/pd/658302), came to Lutheranism.

    First question: Do you not consider the Confessional Evangelical Lutheran Church’s tradition (described below) as “mainline”?
    ================================================================================
    PREFACE
    Brian McLaren, a central figure in the Emerging Church Movement, wrote a book some years ago called A Generous Orthodoxy. It had a significant subtitle: Why I Am a Missional, Evangelical, Post/Protestant, Liberal/Conservative, Mystical/Poetic, Biblical, Charismatic/Contemplative, Fundamentalist/Calvinist, Anabaptist/Anglican, Methodist, Catholic, Green, Incarnational, Depressed-Yet-Hopeful, Emergent, Unfinished Christian (Zondervan, 2004). McLaren hoped to get beyond these divisions and dichotomies in favor of a more relational Christianity that transcends all of these traditions. But something is curiously missing from McLaren’s title and chapter headings: Lutheran. In the list of traditions he wants to draw from and identify with (sort of), he mentions Evangelical, Catholic, Methodist, Calvinist, Anglican, and Methodist. But Lutheran does not appear. Authentic Christianity argues that the Lutheran tradition does what McClaren is hoping for. The Lutheran tradition offers a framework for pulling together what is best in all other Christian traditions. And it embodies an expression of Christianity that can uniquely address the postmodern condition that McClaren is hoping to reach. But the Lutheran tradition does so not by being “emergent,” or making up some new approach to church or to the Christian life. Rather, it does so in an unexpected way: by being confessional, sacramental, and vocational.
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    Second, I think Curtis’s work at Redeeming Babel, particularly the course on “God’s Purpose for Your Organizational Life” can be enhanced by a thorough understanding of Martin Luther’s “Two-Kingdoms” theology (not “augmented” by Calvin or the Anabaptists). The Christian exists in God’s Kingdom composed of two kingdoms. the Left-Hand Kingdom (Law, Earthly, Secular) - STATE and the Right-Hand Kingdom (Gospel, Spiritual, Sacred) - CHURCH. The Christian in organizations, governments , … vocations is in the Left-Hand Kingdom.
    =====================================================================
    (Augustine's model of the City of God was the foundation for Luther's doctrine, but Luther goes farther.[2]

    According to the two kingdom doctrine, the spiritual kingdom, made up of true Christians, does not need the sword. The biblical passages dealing with justice and retribution, therefore, are only in reference to the first kingdom. Luther also uses this idea to describe the relationship of the church to the state. He states that the temporal kingdom has no authority in matters pertaining to the spiritual kingdom. He pointed to the way in which the Roman Catholic Church had involved itself in secular affairs, and princes' involvement in religious matters, especially the ban on printing the New Testament.[3]

    God has therefore ordained two regiment(s): the spiritual which by the Holy Spirit produces Christians and pious folk under Christ, and the secular which restrains un-Christian and evil folk, so that they are obliged to keep outward peace, albeit by no merit of their own

    — Martin Luther[4]

    This law-gospel distinction parallels and amplifies the Luther's doctrine of Christians being at the same time saint and sinner, a citizen of both kingdoms. Luther described them as slaves of sin, the law, and death while alive and existing in the earthly kingdom, but when dead in Christ, they become instead lords over sin, the law, and death.[5] The law-gospel distinction can be traced back to Philip Melancthon's 1521 commentary on Romans,[6] and Melancthon's 1521 Loci Communes.[7].
    ===========================================================================

    Again, thank you both for excellent , Truth-centered work.

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    Kizedek

    Thanks for this discussion.

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    Mefulmer

    Another AMA question: Pretend that you had to move to the other's current home town. David, what you we tell Curtis about navigating in central Tennessee, and Curtis, what would you tell David about San Jose? What would you warn them about, and what would you tell them to seek out?

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  4. Boiselukemiller

    I wanted to submit a question for your upcoming question and answer episode: As a Christian who feels politically homeless (cannot fully embrace either Republican nor Democratic parties) and feels a calling to run for election, how does an independent navigate and prevail in our two-party system?

    The cards are stacked against independents. In the state in which I live (Idaho), campaign money is essentially cut in half due to primary fundraising limits and the general election. Individuals can donate the maximum amount to partisan candidates for primaries and again donate the maximum for general. Independents are limited to only one of those donations. Resources such as voter databases are far more robust through parties. If elected, caucusing is still done through parties. The system is not favorable to independents. And yet, I believe we are in a moment in America where the majority of Americans feel a growing sense of discomfort with either party and a tremendous lack of trust in the institution of government in general.

    Do you have any advice for independents? Is it pure foolishness to believe an independent can prevail and have influence? Would you classify the greater context of two-party politics as something that needs to change?

    Finally, thank you for the work you do. As I prepare my heart and mind for a future political run, I find your podcast to be a helpful and trusted resource. I especially appreciate the combination of wise knowledge and experience and pastoral care and thought. You guys are a blessing to my life in this season of preparation for me.

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  5. Dan.Strutzel

    Hi David and Curtis: Keep up the great work with the Good Faith podcast. I've been a loyal listener since the very first episode and it's one of my favorites. You both do such a great job of modeling how to discuss complex issues that involve the intersection of faith and culture with such grace and dignity.

    I have aa question for you that reflects an issue that I grapple with daily, in light of my Catholic / Christian Faith. Just for background, I'm a 55 year old male, married father of three, and consider myself a "radical moderate" when it comes to cultural issues--depending on the issue being discussed I can fall on either the center-right or center-left. But, for many issues these days, I find that I rarely have an "oh that's easy....here's my view" response. Most issues today require more detailed thought, scriptural reflection and deep prayer to come to a conclusion. And in many cases, it's because issues that I once felt were "settled" , now (either in light of cultural changes, new information/education, or even a more mature understanding of Scripture) now requires new thinking.

    In light of this, here is one such question where my previous "settled" understanding requires new thought.

    From each of your unique perspectives, how should Christians approach the topic of gender? In Scripture, we are told "Male and Female He created them." Yet, in a modern world we have gender specialists saying that there are multiple genders, and that gender exists "on a spectrum." We also have record numbers of people identifying as Transgender or Non-Binary. How do you approach this topic, in light of your Christian Faith? I'm desperate to hear from two Christians who I deeply respect, and who will treat this question with the complexity and grace that it deserves.

    Rest assured, I'll keep listening each week!

    God bless,
    Dan

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    Kallenboone

    Great podcast! I'm looking forward to the Q&A. I have several questions, but I'll try to keep them concise and order them by my own priority of wanting to hear an answer.

    1. How do you recommend triaging differences and disagreement? When is it appropriate to denounce a particular belief or practice, and when should we exercise more restraint?

    2. Can you flesh out more your interpretation of what the Image of God is? Does every institution bear the Image of God, or does it need to meet certain criteria first? Will there be continuity of image bearing institutions in the eschaton? I'm intrigued by the idea, but my mind kinda spirals when I consider the implications. I might be overthinking it, though.

    3. David, how did you develop your ability to endure such harsh and often hateful criticism? I find myself incensed on your behalf when I see some of it, but you seem to take it in stride.

    4. What's the deal with the Nephilim?

    5. Are ya'll pre-, post-, a- millenial? Or something else? I'm curious how your view of the end times impacts your work in politics and culture.

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  7. Jerrydn

    “Different course to the same destination” could be taken to the Oprah belief; many ways to the top of the mountain. I think (hope?) you Curtis are meaning there are many different political views (routes) compatible with orthodox Christianity.

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      Kizedek

      Curtis already explained his sextant was the Bible and his sun was Christ.

      I took it to mean different routes to achieve or improve particular outcomes in society that are commonly perceived to be "good" (such as justice for the vulnerable, relief of poverty, end of drug epidemic, better education, etc.).

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  8. Susanne Svendsen

    First, I want to go to a dinner party with you two!!! I will even host, if you don't mind coming to NJ. I am a pretty good cook! And please bring Jonah!

    Second, I am reminded of something the Lord once showed me through a story in Joshua. On the eve of entering the promised land, Joshua meets a man with a sword and asks him if he is "for us or for our adversaries? So He said, 'No, but as Commander of the army of the Lord I have now come.' And Joshua fell on his face to the earth and worshipped and said to Him, 'What does my Lord say to His servant?'"

    As God's representative in the situation, the messenger isn't interested in being on one or another earthly "side". Instead, He is there to represent the Lord and His interests. Implied in this is an invitation to Joshua to join the Lord's side and the purposes that He was busy with. In the same way in our lives, what is less important than sides is a willingness to put the Lord's interests first, and to stay in the flow of what he is doing in our lives. In this way we can walk on earth not as mere men, but as representatives of heavenly values and purposes among any group of people we find ourselves with.

    Thank you guys for the huge blessing you have been to my life through the podcast. I pray that through thick and thin you will be enabled to stay on the Lord's side and be used for His purposes.

    And I am serious about the dinner party.

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  9. Humblyasked7

    Which typically “progressive” cultural/political positions DO you think tend to call into question a professed Christian’s saving commitment to the God of the Bible?

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    1. Magrassman

      Evangelicals or theologically conservative Christians usually hold to supernatural revelation and the authority of the Bible among several other basic beliefs. From there they apply these theological positions or biblical principles to understand how this theology relates the contemporary culture and politics. Obviously, there is theological variation even within conservative Christianity as evidenced by denominations. The real question for theological conservatives is, are there biblical theological positions/principles that inform us how to interact with culture and politics?

      People don’t hold progressive ideas (or conservative ideas) in isolation but hold to a suite of ideas/positions grounded in a philosophy or some basic views that inform these ideas. Pew Research Center has an interesting article analyzing how various groups break out on a variety of issues titled “Beyond Red vs. Blue: The Political Typology.” “Three-quarters of the Progressive Left say it is not important to believe in God to be considered good or moral. And they are more likely than other groups to say the decline in the share of Americans belonging to an organized religion is good for society.” Granted, the Progressive Left is the most extreme but 50% of the progressive groups have a low view of belief in God as it pertains to goodness and morality while conservatives are exactly the opposite. Anyway, that is just one small piece of the analysis. It is interesting and worth checking out.

      Here is an example of how a conservative Christian might hold a position that looks like a progressive position. I believe one can make a good argument for biblical stewardship of nature. This is not environmentalism or progressivism, but it is a alternative way of thinking about and dealing with many of the same issues.

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        Kizedek

        "The real question for theological conservatives is, are there biblical theological positions/principles that inform us how to interact with culture and politics?"

        That is a good question when honestly asked and answered. I think the answer involves showing a lot more grace and allowance toward the rest of society and culture than we would like to think. Often, the positions/principles that are cherry picked and applied in these situations are more like those we should apply to ourselves and one another as Christians, as we attempt to hold each other accountable as fellow believers who "should know better". In other words, we tend to try and hold the rest of society to a higher standard than we hold ourselves. That's not the way to develop a good testimony of the difference Christ makes in our life.

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  10. Keith Blank

    I'm not sure where to answer the question posed of topic suggestions for this podcast. I'll put it here and on the French Press. How does a Christian vote, and/or should they abstain, when there are no clear options? Does voting for someone mean you endorse them in the eyes of God? Is not voting wrong? Is writing in shirking responsibility?

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    1. Taylor Whisman

      Great question- I would love to hear their response! As a nonbeliever, I have similar questions prior to going to the polls. Should anyone abstain when there are no clear options? In past election cycles, I felt trapped, like a pawn in an awful game.

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