That Toddlin’ Town

Chicago-style pizza *is* a casserole.

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Dedicated Remnant listeners may recall that in 2019, Jonah stopped by the headquarters of the Illinois Policy Institute to record a special, Chicago-centric episode. On his recent voyage to the Windy City, Jonah returned to the institute to record a follow-up with its president, Matt Paprocki. Together, they discuss the challenges facing Chicago, how conservatives can win Illinois, and what policies should be pursued to lift people out of poverty. Tune in for the wonkery, but stick around to find out how many obscure nicknames for Chicago are lodged in Jonah’s brain.

Show Notes:

– The Illinois Policy Institute

– Matt’s page at IPI

– Matt’s Substack

– Michael Madigan’s scandals

– The Remnant with Arthur Brooks

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Comments (28)
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  1. Avatar photo
    C C Writer

    All right, two final comments:

    1) I like to call it Byzantium, just to underscore that I don't buy into the binary-choice thing.

    2) Yes to Chicago-style hot dogs as being the way to have a hot dog. With the proviso that whatever anyone says I will put ketchup on mine, because I happen to like it that way, it's only one added to about 15 other garnishes/condiments, and I'm not making anyone else put ketchup on theirs, am I? Nor even getting in their face with it; I prefer to get my dog & fries to go from a quintessential neighborhood place, and add ketchup at home. I respectfully submit that this puts me in exactly the right place with regard to individual freedom.

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  2. Dreedprice

    I loved the comment about hot states. Texas is definitely hot especially in the summer.

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  3. Avatar photo
    The Bell Tower

    When I went to China, I visited a Catholic Church on the mainland and it immediately struck me that these were hardcore Catholics. It's easy to be a Catholic in America. But those folks manning the church in China given the history and the hostility of the current regime? That is hard core Catholicism, especially the older folks who must have seen the Cultural Revolution and perhaps the famines. It's a lot easier to not be Catholic, I'm sure. Why go to the trouble if you don't have a burning faith? That's inspirational.

    I feel the same way about your guest, Mr. Paprocki. I haven't heard an inspirational conversation about conservatism like this one since Jack Kemp passed. I always wonder what conservatives must be like in towns like Chicago if they exist at all. I spend a lot of time in New York even though I live in Florida and I know a lot of right wing minded folks up that way but we're mostly like Christmas and Easter Catholics. We believe in the right things but that's really the extent of it.

    Mr. Paprocki is fighting the good fight and I have enormous respect for what he said here and what he's clearly doing to advance the cause. When he talks about Chicago, it reminds me of how Frederick Douglass first described the north upon attaining his freedom. He was moved by the teeming industry and opportunity. Wish I could find that passage right now.

    As for Jonah, I feel like you're copping out on the pizza stuff. I suppose you could turn that around on me and say "If you call a meatloaf a pizza, is it really a pizza?" Fair enough but if I'm given the choice between a New York slice and a Chicago slice, unless it's 3AM and I'm half a bottle of scotch and a few tequila shots down the rabbit hole, I'm going Chicago every time. And I've only been to Chicago a handful of times.

    Thanks for another great podcast, sir.

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  4. Paulkempf

    Did Jonah leave out City of the Big Shoulders or did I miss it?

    Hog Butcher for the World,
    Tool Maker, Stacker of Wheat,
    Player with Railroads and the Nation's Freight Handler;
    Stormy, husky, brawling,
    City of the Big Shoulders
    https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/poems/12840/chicago

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    1. Avatar photo
      C C Writer

      As long as you don't call it "City of the Broad Shoulders." Because that's not the right wording.

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  5. Mmorrissey001

    What an excellent guest. Well done.

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  6. Avatar photo
    BWG

    The whole west coast has an East-West political/cultural divide: majority Democrat on the west, majority Republican inland east. Which is mostly the same as everywhere else in the US: politically liberal in the high-density urban areas, conservative in the more rural areas. What kills me is the liberals talk all day about respect for minorities and diversity, and then want to impose their vision on the east side: immense wind farms, tearing out dams, and forcing a florist to celebrate gay marriages with her artistic talents. But I'm not bitter....

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    1. Avatar photo
      The Bell Tower

      Interestingly, Ryan Streeter just posted a super compelling piece on this refuting the theory completely. Excellent article.

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    2. Avatar photo
      The Bell Tower

      The rural/urban divide is significant and universal. Whether it’s the Virginia planters talking with contempt about the cities of Philly and NY or Mao sending a bunch of illiterate children into the countryside to teach the peasants how to farm. You can guess how that worked out. The Russian communists raging against the Kulaks, Pol Pot raiding the cities and forcing everyone into the countryside, Jefferson’s agrarian vision and contempt for the “money changers” like Hamilton. What about the contemptible French representatives on mission? Or the early communists wondering how to get those recalcitrant peasants as excited about the revolution as they were?

      It’s crazy to me how much of history revolves around this type of conflict. We spend a lot of time talking about race and class but I would argue that rural vs urban is almost more significant than either of those. And it’s definitely visible in today’s America.

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      1. Avatar photo
        BWG

        Yes, the rural-urban divide was/is arguably central to the Civil War, Prohibition, and all of today's (and yesteryears') culture wars. Certainly other major factors at play in each, but there is that component.

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        1. Avatar photo
          The Bell Tower

          I think it’s an interesting thought anyhow. Not sure if there’s any rigorous scholarship out there to support the theory.

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      2. Paulkempf

        I agree with your general point about the rural/urban divide, with each side viewing the other with contempt. (Social media has brought each side face to face with this phenomenon. How many in the US interior were surprised when a couple of decades ago they found out that they lived in flyover country?)

        But with regard to Mao, conventional accounts of the Cultural Revolution narrate that students were sent to the countryside to learn from the peasants, not vice versa.
        https://www.library.dartmouth.edu/digital/digital-collections/down-countryside-movement#:~:text=In%201968%2C%20China's%20Chairman%20Mao,Movement%20during%20China's%20Cultural%20Revolution.

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        1. Avatar photo
          The Bell Tower

          I’m talking about the Great Leap Forward where something very similar to what you see in some pockets of academia today happened. Students would intentionally screw up math problems to show their commitment to the cause over stupid things like math or science:

          “We reject the fetishism of figures which hold us in thrall …. We reject the multiplication table as the basis for policy”

          A lot of these idiots went out to form collectives where they forced the peasants to “voluntarily” join the party and then crammed junk farming like close planting or deep ploughing, collectivizing tools, food quotas, etc. down their throats.

          They destroyed the peasants’ way of living, their religion, their history of knowledge and traditions of farming and utterly devastated the countryside and their food production. Then they lied to Mao about how bad it was because he’d shown a propensity to murder anyone who troubled him with annoying things like science or math or farming experience if it happened to conflict with his warped world view.

          That’s according to Becker anyway. Frank Dikotter tells a similar story. This link refers to the Up To The Mountains and Down to the Countryside movement where they sent privileged youth from the cities to “learn from the peasants.” I’m referring also to the Red Guards, who massacred class traitors, landlords, and anyone they decided subscribed to “old thinking.”

          I’d like to get a copy of these diaries that you linked to. They look to be in Chinese here, which I can speak a very little but certainly can’t read.

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        2. Avatar photo
          The Bell Tower

          I have to check out this link. I’m referring to Dikotter or Jasper Becker.

          Edit: This says ‘68, which is after Mao caused the famine. Sounds like his attempt to save face afterward.

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  7. Avatar photo
    Ben Connelly

    I don’t have any connection to Chicago, and I’ve spent less than a day there (and that was mostly at the airport). But this was super interesting.

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  8. Radical Dreamer

    As a long time resident of Chicago, it brought me much joy to hear someone else does the "kick the bin to scare the rats" trick (Hot tip, you only need to do it at night as I've never seen a trash rat when the sun was out).

    Also you know you are dealing with a native if they have a ready answer to the topic of "Chicago Pizza" and the classic swerve to hot dogs. I've definitely had that exact conversation tree over a dozen times probably in the last year.

    This podcast was like pure crack for me, thanks for giving Chicago some much needed love!

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    1. Avatar photo
      C C Writer

      Well, I have to ask, then, why this guy is referring to the "DMV" (or "Department of Motor Vehicles"). He hit one of my pet peeves. Even if other states have a DMV, the state of Illinois has nothing by that name! The office of the Illinois Secretary of State has a Driver Services department where you get your license, etc., and a Vehicle Services department where you get your title, registration, license plates, etc. (And by the way, the retiring Secretary of State has done a pretty decent job at making these departments more user-friendly, showing that such a thing is possible.)

      Why is it important to get this stuff right? 1) Accuracy is key to credibility. 2) In the United States, local and regional differences are supposed to be considered a feature to be acknowledged and celebrated--not a bug.

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  9. Avatar photo
    Stevecplz

    Excellent podcast. Many thanks for an entertaining and enlightening experience.

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  10. Rall.Andrew

    Does anyone else play the game “How fast can you successfully identify Jonah’s guest as Catholic?”

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