Axis of A-Holes

What happens now?

By , , and
53

It’s day six since the massacre in Israel and Sarah, Steve, Jonah, and David French are in it for a somber episode. They discuss:

-Bad allies

-Two-state solutionism

-What is Hamas’ goal?

You're out of free articles
Create an account to unlock 1 more articles
By signing up with your email, you agree to The Dispatch’s privacy policy and terms and conditions
Already have an account? Sign In
By , , and
Comments (53)
Join The Dispatch to participate in the comments.
 
  1. Mrjsfisher

    I’d describe myself as a left of center moderate democrat who appreciates the views of this organization enough to pay to support it.

    David’s take on the “progressive” left’s political credibility is 100% correct. I can’t for the life of me understand why, where, or how any single person alive can see what happened in the Hamas attack on Israel and blame Israel for it. Andrew Sullivan I think properly framed the issue and I whole heartedly agree with it: one can say that Israel has done awful things towards Palestinians without choosing this moment to defend the actions of Hamas. Yet that is not what has happened.

    It’s just saddening and shocking to see people on my political “side” effectively endorse rape, kidnapping, and child murder as somehow valid tools of war.

    I’m not sure when the left abandoned the universality of basic human rights as a core principle. It’s pretty sickening to see people who have never personally experienced any amount of hardship or violence (and, in the case of college students and faculty motivated by anti colonial hogwash, aren’t organizing to have their academic institutions become reorganized as tribal lands, btw) cheer on violence by a terrorist organization.

    This all reminds me of the worst of the soviet/Stalinist apologetics in the 30s and 40s. The left motivates by some loose self-identification with an organization or system thousands of miles away defending the worst atrocities because they agree with the goal or the theoretical underpinning of it.

    The only problem is here, there’s nothing, literally nothing, that any person on the left should find affinity with in regard to Hamas. It is genocidal in its stated goals. It is anti-democratic in its control and domination of Gaza. It is hostile to women’s rights. It has used rape and child murder as a weapon of war.

    I can’t understand the position these people have taken, and find it all quite sickening.

    Collapse
  2. Avatar photo
    Ehoop

    In a newtonian universe, there must be at least one point on the scale between "no palestinians are civilians" and "no Israelis are civilians."
    I can't do the proof in this format, but trust me.

    Collapse
  3. Avatar photo
    The Bell Tower

    You aren’t wrong, Sarah. It happens to men also. I have two little Chinese daughters and when I sat down to study what the One Child Policy in China meant for little girls, it was immensely upsetting to think of what might have happened had they not been born here. When you have children, these crimes hit different.

    The West is far too tolerant of barbarism. Toleration of barbarism begets more barbarism. Joe Biden just yesterday said Israel should not “occupy” Palestine.

    Occupy? They should invade it, take control of it, rename that entire region Judea and utterly destroy every remnant of Hamas that exists. The Jews once hunted down every Nazi they could find and hanged them. It was the right thing to do but they were too late. How many lives did we lose thanks to appeasement? There is no excuse to be too late again.

    We keep hearing about Palestinian civilians. The best thing for those innocent civilians - by far - is that Israel “occupy” Gaza. They will eat, they will drink, they will flourish and they will never be forced to live next to the headquarters and ammunition stockpiles of Jew hating baby killers. There is no comparison.

    Amnesty International, an organization I once greatly respected, calls that region “occupied Palestine.” I find this to be insane and utterly unconscionable.

    The left absolutely pilloried Donald Trump for winking at those tiki torch Nazis. It’s a dog whistle for anti-Semitism, they said.

    Really? What do they call demands for caution from Israel in the face of the worst slaughter of Jews since Heinrich Himmler was still breathing? What do they call billions of dollars of oil revenues to a regime openly dedicated to the eradication of Jews?

    It is long past time for intolerance. Intolerance of Jew hatred. Intolerance of baby killing. Intolerance of anti-Semitism. Israel must eradicate Hamas but that is not enough. The UN and similar organizations have been overrun with anti-Semitism in the shape of appeasement and “tolerance.” The US can no longer sit idly by and allow it to continue.

    Defund and evict the United Nations. Build an alternative with like minded republics and democracies and stop allowing barbaric governments like China, Iran, Russia and the rest to bind the West by rules they have no intention of obeying themselves. It’s a charade whose time has come and gone. End it before it’s too late.

    Collapse
  4. Avatar photo
    Michael Berkowitz

    I never use all-caps, except to make fun of people using all-caps, but the temptation has never been greater than now.

    Ms. Isgur, Messrs French, Hayes, Goldberg and the rest of the folks at TD, you're all great people, as far as I've seen. You've made it clear that you've got your moral heads on your shoulders. But let me make a few points:

    The obsessive drawing of a distinction between Hamas and the rest of the Palestinians isn't warranted. Yes, the non-combatants are civilians and must be protected as such. Of course. And children are children. Of course. But to think that most Gazans don't support Hamas's aims or aren't pleased with the atrocities -- except insofar as they fear the response -- is baseless. Hamas didn't parachute into Gaza. I feel like Richard Widmark in 𝘑𝘶𝘥𝘨𝘦𝘮𝘦𝘯𝘵 𝘢𝘵 𝘕𝘶𝘳𝘦𝘮𝘣𝘦𝘳𝘨 saying "There are no Nazis in Germany. Didn't you know that, Judge? The Eskimos invaded Germany and took over. That's how all those terrible things happened. It wasn't the fault of the Germans. It was the fault of those damn Eskimos!" What, do you think that when we free everyday Gazans from their Hamas oppressors, they're going to greet us with Israeli flags and confetti? And this despite the fact that we'll probably have lost many of our sons solely because of our efforts to avoid killing Gazans.

    And the PA is no better. Last I heard, it was still giving financial rewards to people who kill Israelis.

    So again, our hearts can go out to the children and to any adults who are genuinely on the side of Right, but let's not deny the moral agency -- and guilt -- of the Gazans as a whole. And before I move on, let me point out that Palestinian polls in the 30-40 years that I've seen them show consistent support for murdering Israeli civilians; support at a level that Americans couldn't drum up for Apple Pie. And of course all those who say that wiping Hamas out is useless because a new crop will rise up to replace it are saying that it's not just Hamas, but the surrounding populace as well.

    Now, the pro-forma declarations that Israel hasn't always made the right choices regarding the Palestinians... Well, that's just groupthink. It implies that Israel, having been attacked repeatedly by the Arabs, Palestinians included, still somehow owes them something. It buys into the idea that The Occupation is something where I can order a Palestinian around, take his stuff or have him make way for me on the sidewalk. What we have, in actual fact, is about the least intrusive regime for keeping ourselves from being killed, no more.

    Should Palestinians get to vote? Certainly, but they 𝘥𝘰 vote (when allowed to) for the Palestinian Authority. That's not a real state? It has a police, a health department, education, a DMV... It doesn't have anti-aircraft batteries? 𝘛𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘦'𝘴 𝘯𝘰 𝘩𝘶𝘮𝘢𝘯 𝘳𝘪𝘨𝘩𝘵 𝘵𝘰 𝘢𝘯𝘵𝘪-𝘢𝘪𝘳𝘤𝘳𝘢𝘧𝘵 𝘣𝘢𝘵𝘵𝘦𝘳𝘪𝘦𝘴, nor can one expect Israel to allow such a thing in any deal. It's perfectly reasonable that there be a price to pay for repeated attempts at mass-murder. Want to call it a state and provide borders? I think that's doable, though it would be the size of the area that the vast majority of Palestinians inhabit. The only advantages of the '67 borders are that they let the Arabs pretend that they didn't lose and they let them pretend that the Jews didn't win. They have no other significance. (And yes, I'm aware of counterarguments to things I'm saying, but my whole point is that you should have to make the arguments, not just assume them because everyone else does.)

    The people who determined that the Palestinians are occupied, colonialized and oppressed are the ones who say they're subjugated, living under Apartheid and victims of genocide, and now those same people are saying it's therefore okay, even laudable, for them to kill babies. When rolling back the layers of wrong here, don't stop partway.

    If the West wants to help -- and I think the focus of its help should be Israel, without having to explain how each thing is really also good for the Palestinians -- it should give Israel all the "leash" it needs to fight this war the way America and its allies surely would (Israel will still maintain a smaller percentage of civilian casualties, because that's how it operates).

    Furthermore, it should finally tell the Palestinians that they're not the victims of anything except their own wrong decisions and they should modulate their demands accordingly. Nothing has done more to prolong this problem than bombarding them with the idea that if they just hold out, remain miserable and occasionally kill a lot of people, they'll get everything that they want.

    Collapse
  5. ErrantThoughts

    I agree that the Dems don't have any obligation to save the Republicans from the tiger they've raised from a kitten on steady diet of fear and anger, are now riding, and can't get off without being eaten by it.

    Republicans for decades have used mailing lists, AM talk shows, cable TV, and the internet to feed their base a steady diet of fear, anger, and even hate to win elections. Along with this the GOP gerrymandered enough districts where the primary was effectively the general election to allow its fringe to metastasize into a faction large enough to influence the party.

    The Dems' argument is that the Republicans have become too dysfunctional to govern. When the Republicans are proving the Dems case on the national stage it's insane to expect the Dems to step in and stop them..... unless the Dems are offered something they really want.

    Offer the Dems some of the power they could get if they win a majority in '24 now, enough they can influence policy and make it easier to re-elect Biden. To be specific if the Republicans are serious about getting out of the mess of their own creation they would ask the Dems to choose four Republicans they would support for Speaker and then the sane Republicans would choose from those four.

    Further the sane republicans would offer the Dems majorities and the chair on some committees. The Republicans would agree on a select set of issues where the Dems were allowed to bring bills directly to the floor. This would include attaching grants to States changing their elections from first past the post to jungle primaries with Ranked Choice Voting general elections. Think the Alaska model.

    In effect the price of the Dems bailing the Republicans out of a mess of their own making would be to make the Dems co-equal in power in the House, or near enough, to allow Dem priorities and Biden's agenda to move forward.

    It's not a cheap price but the time to bargain the price of water is not after you have set yourself on fire.

    Collapse
  6. ErrantThoughts

    I don't know about others but when I worry about Israeli revenge instead of Justice it's revenge on the civilians not Hamas. I agree that Hamas is Isis like and needs to be ended as a functional organization. It's drive to destroy Israel and it's functionally a criminal enterprise in the way it intimidates, steals from, and even kills Palestinians make is a cancer on the region. It must be ended.

    Ending Hamas, including it's leadership holed up in Qatar, would make just about everything better. Provided it wasn't replaced by a Hamas look alike.

    The US made a lot of mistakes after 9/11 and it has cost us in treasure and conscience. I sincerely hope our the Israeli friends make better choices than we did.

    As to are we treating Israel the same as other nations. The answer clearly is no we are not. No other nation has received so much sustained financial and military support over 6+ decades. To who much is given, more is expected.

    So yes we should and need to support Israel in its war on Hamas, not Palestinians but Hamas. And we also need to push for Israel to do as much as possible for the Palestinian people during this war. Because unless Israel plans to kill every Palestinian, when this war is over they some entity to be able to start a new peace process with. Else the cycles of violence and injustice will just continue, rotting both peoples from within.

    I'll also say with the rise of Israel's far right wing and ultra orthodox parties there may not be a desire for any plan that could reasonably result in a working peace. I hope I'm wrong.

    Collapse
    1. April

      I am in complete agreement with ErrantThoughts points. Decision makers must keep these in mind if there is to be any hope of achieving peace between the Israelis and Palestinians.

      Collapse
  7. Rossknode

    My opinion on what will happen going forward is completely formed by the knowledge that Hammas terrorists live streamed the murder of grandparents and children on social media. You do something like that, and you and your organization no longer have a right to exist. You don't and can't negotiate with people who gleefully step to that level of evil and hatred.

    Collapse
  8. Avatar photo
    Travis M

    The "good" news is that Axis of Abhorrence has the same weakness that Jonah talks about when he talks about authoritarian regimes being strong, but brittle.

    Iran, China and Russia all have their own disputes/issues that can drive wedges between them or make them turn inward. The Iran population is more pro-Western than their government. China has their coming demographic crisis, and Russia also has a demographic issue and it isn't going to be getting better with their amount of casualties.

    The biggest question is if we regain our moral center and courage of our foundation.

    Collapse
    1. Rossknode

      Yep. How many of Russia's "allies" are freely giving them aid and support? You know Iran and N Korea are all getting more from Russia then Russia is getting from them. And Russia is fully aware of this.

      Collapse
  9. Alan.Crystal

    Steve - a clarification / correction on your description of the Biden speech. Biden actually did include language calling for Israel to exercise restraint in their response to the Hamas terrorist attack. Here’s the section of Biden’s speech:

    “We also discussed how democracies like Israel and the United States are stronger and more secure when we act according to the rule of law.

    Terrorists purpo- — purposefully target civilians, kill them. We uphold the laws of war — the law of war. It matters. There’s a difference.”

    Collapse
    1. ErrantThoughts

      Why do you assume it means restraint with regards to Hamas and not restraint with regards to Palestinian civilians. Let's not conflate Hamas terrorists with the Palestinian people as a whole.

      Collapse
  10. Kathywilk

    I was waiting for this podcast all week - so glad the Fab Four were back together to help us process the terror in Israel. Would like Jonah's stats on UN condemnations please.

    Collapse
Load More