Pain and Protest

Sarah, Steve, Jonah, and David discuss the continued fallout over the death of George Floyd ...

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Sarah, Steve, Jonah, and David discuss the continued fallout over the death of George Floyd and the events of Lafayette Square, why this moment feels different, police reform on Capitol Hill, and the “defund the police” movement.


Show Notes:

–The crackdown before Trump’s photo op

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  1. Avatar photo
    Marie V

    Regarding qualified immunity. I understand Jonah's concern for new officers, but I agree with David that there are other mechanisms that are better suited to protect them. Professional engineers, lawyers, doctors, nurses, and other professionals can be held liable for mistakes that they make in their profession. They have liability insurance, an ethics board, a certification/license that can be revoked, etc. There is a training period, residency, or other apprenticeship under a senior person for mentorship. A system without consequences is not healthy. Just ask a mother of a toddler.

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      James Spiller

      I feel like those systems are all better than giving control to trial lawyers. Indeed, we currently have internal affairs bureaucracies in police contexts.

      If we feel like those are in sufficiently vigorous, often we have the opportunity to elect sheriffs etc. who are closer to our views than the incumbents. If we want more formal change, we could democratically change the consequences of review board concerns; in particular, we could shift to boards that required only a minority of members to sign off on discipline, we could financially incentivize whistle blowing more, and we could have quotas for turnover.

      Deciding that because the review boards are insufficiently vigorous we should have the system work by lottery catastrophes that take years to destroy the lives of those they impact ignores everything we know about incentives. The kind that works for reform is small, frequent, swift intervention.

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    Jonathan Nebel

    Another wonderful pod! Had a few random thoughts.

    First, I just want on record that--as someone who has a dog-eared copy of Ron Paul's "End the Fed"--there were plenty of us who literally meant abolish the Federal Reserve when we said "end the Fed." I guess we are just the wild few while we manage to drag along a few straggler politicians to at least audit the Fed.

    Second, I think the phrase that ought to replace "defund the police" is "unbundle the police." Alex Tabarrok is right on this! (https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2020/06/why-are-the-police-in-charge-of-road-safety.html)

    Third, when Jonah does a podcast on all the great mistakes people make about history I hope the existence of the phrase "dark ages" shows up.

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    BigButch55

    It always befuddles me how Steven Hayes a fellow Wisconsinite of near the same age can be as much of a wino as he is and so fixated on one nations wine at that. How did he go from PBR to Spanish wine? It should defy his cultural DNA.....maybe its the cheese connection?

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      Jonathan Nebel

      Maybe it is those strange Wisconsin Old Fashioneds that are made with brandy that serve as the gateway drug to wine.

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  4. Brenda B

    I’m a humble public servant and I’ve been on both sides of the public union. I’ve been a member hoping for help in an area (didn’t get it) and I’ve been a manager with a union grievance against me. Getting rid of public unions is needed. IMHO

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  5. Michael

    X-20 Dyna-Soar ... that’s a reference you don’t hear very often. David, Nashville, isn’t far from the USAF Museum in Dayton, OH. Best collection of experimental military aircraft, including a wind tunnel model of the X-20A, the XB-70 Valkyrie and my favorite ... the X-15 hypersonic rocket plane that went to Mach 6.7. They sure don’t do X-planes like they used to. I always take visiting summer researchers, grad students and faculty to the museum to motivate and show them some of the aerospace problems we still haven’t solved!

    Apologies for the nerd talk Sarah.

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  6. David Conklin

    The question was posed by Sarah to David are the protests and reactions to these recent incidents different than in 2014 with Eric Garner. David elucidated some interesting points which I agree with but I feel he missed some big ones. Jonah touched on one. The pent up frustration from Covid and people having too much time on their hands. And an even larger one is that President Obama was in office in 2014 and he had the blessing of the media and the young protest type voter. A large chunk of the media sees this as a great opportunity to go after Trump. I would also add that the progressive juggernaut and its machinations have grown greatly and hungry since 2014. And I don’t know why but the black former police captain, David Dorn who was killed responding to a burglary of a pawn shop seems to be forgotten. I have not seen any signs for him in the BLM protests. He served his community with distinction and his death affects me greatly. Let us not forget him by getting tangled in a political narrative .

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    Dana Goldstein

    Sarah, beer is actually good for nursing! All carbs are good for nursing alas, and the one time I tried to go low carb too soon after birth (and I’ve had four!) was the only time I had issues making enough milk. So one vote for beer here! 🍺

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    1. Brenda B

      Not sure I’d vote for PBR like Steve brought though.

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    Ethan Cordray

    My answer to the Jonah question: that the medieval era was a "dark age" when everything was terrible for everybody and there wasn't any human progress.

    My answer to the David question: The United States not annexing Cuba and giving it full statehood after the Spanish-American war.

    My answer to the Steve question: a flight of five gin & tonics, each made with a different premium gin and a different premium tonic.

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  9. David Lancaster

    There ARE reasons why public sector employees should have unions. I'm probably not the best advocate for the position, but I've definitely come around to see their value in the last couple years.

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    1. David Lancaster

      For example, many of the perks of public employment (greater job security, better hours, etc.) definitely would not exist but for collective bargaining.

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        James Spiller

        When you look at small municipal bankruptcies that have taken place, or the large municipal and state bankruptcies that loom, and note that every financial analysis of them focuses on overly generous pensions, are you sure that it is a good thing, even for state employees, that the benefits are so generous?

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  10. Joe Curtis

    Light item topics: Bourbon vs. Scotch vs Irish Whiskey

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    1. Brenda B

      Have you tried Jefferson Ocean. Yummy

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      1. Joe Curtis

        Not yet, but I'll put it on my wish list.

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      Ethan Cordray

      Don't forget Canadian! Oky, you can forget Canadian. But don't forget rye!

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      1. Joe Curtis

        My bad. Sorry.

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