Ukraine Under Attack

On today’s podcast, Sarah and Steve talk with Natalie Jaresko, Ukraine’s former minister of finance. ...

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On today’s podcast, Sarah and Steve talk with Natalie Jaresko, Ukraine’s former minister of finance. They discuss the history of Ukraine, its people, and what the last two weeks have meant for the country.

Show Notes:

–NPR: “Kenyan U.N. ambassador compares Ukraine’s plight to colonial legacy in Africa”

–The Dispatch: “Why Did Russia Invade Ukraine Now?”

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Comments (27)
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  1. Avatar photo
    Ben Connelly

    You should have had her say, “No you won’t, this is a podcast!”

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  2. Bruce Moyer

    The Biden bashing for the sake of Biden bashing by Steve is just…i have no words. The USA has just put together the most comprehensive set of economy crushing sanctions in history. They did so in a month by creating, managing and leading a global coalition of nations. The act in and of itself made the invasion not only unprofitable but could actually collapse Russia’s economy and thus world standing. That’s not even mentioning the effect of rallying NATO has had on the situation. Ukraine might actually prevail in this war. And if it does so with US help without the lost of a single US life the administration deserves a whole lot of credit. But I’m going to bet Steve’s Biden rants continue either way.

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      Steve Hayes

      Hi Bruce. Let me assure you I'm not "Biden bashing for the sake of Biden bashing." I hope Ukraine prevails and that the Biden administration's handling of the diplomacy around the war proves as effective as you think it's been. I've said here - and elsewhere - that Biden's realtime public use of intel was clever and effective (not as a deterrent, which it was always unlikely to be, but as a means of establishing accountability and foiling Russia's disinformation campaign).

      But, yes, I believe the WH has handled several important aspects of the Ukraine crisis poorly. On Sunday, after bipartisan congressional urging, Secretary of State Antony Blinken seemed to give a green light to a deal where Poland would transfer MiGs to Ukraine, w/the US acting as an intermediary. By late Monday, that deal had been abruptly reversed, apparently by the president himself, for fear of provoking Vladimir Putin, who launched this unprovoked attack on Ukraine. This isn't me nitpicking; Taras Byk, the young Ukrainian I spoke to for today's podcast, says he and others working on the ground with the resistance forces in Kiev were paying careful attention to back-and-forth and are very disappointed with the reversal.

      On the oil ban, White House spokespeople were dismissing or downplaying the possibility as late as Friday, suggesting it would unnecessarily punish American consumers. The Treasury Departments' OFAC put out a statement late Friday clarifying that the carveouts allowing continued energy trading w/Russian banks would continue through late June. But after Nancy Pelosi backed the ban in a letter on Saturday, Dick Durbin supported it on Sunday, and Joe Manchin took to Meet the Press to rally support for his legislation extending the ban, the White House suddenly set aside its objections and signed on.

      There was a similar pattern with some sanctions of Russian leaders and oligarchs, with the White House following Europeans. And I've done reporting that bolsters criticism from Ben Sasse and others that NSC lawyers were slowing the US provision of realtime, battlefield targeting intelligence for fear of drawing Putin's ire.

      I see the international coalition you describe primarily resulting from shock and anger (and fear) at Russia's brutal aggression, and coalescing in spite of rather uneven American leadership. It's clear that you see a stronger Biden hand in bringing it together. Fair enough. Undoubtedly we'll learn more in the coming days and as new facts and revelations surface, I'll adjust my views accordingly.

      But my criticism isn't Biden bashing for the sake of Biden bashing. It grows from real concern about US support for Ukraine and worry about the message unsteady American leadership sends in a time of crisis.

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  3. Heidi Seward

    It was great and heartbreaking to hear her perspective. Thanks.

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    The Bell Tower

    Excellent and edifying podcast. A “colleague” of Stalin brought the Holomodor to my mind. The recent movie, Mr Jones, depicted some aspects of this tragedy. And anyone who thinks Putin is considering the well being of Ukrainians would do well to remember it.

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  5. Rick B

    Good pod a s always, but was trying to fact check about indo-euro language history and found nothing supporting the idea that it originated in the Ukraine. Most I found was Turkey/Iran area was the birthplace of most of our languages and it spread north after the ice-age.

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      Sarah Isgur vertical-nib Author

      https://historyofenglishpodcast.com/2012/08/24/episode-9-who-were-the-indo-europeans-2/

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  6. Dave Pattie

    Can someone please help me find the link to the recording of recent Dispatch Live broadcasts? I don't see this week's (Tuesday night's) on Vimeo when I search (or YouTube) and I don't see a link on the website anywhere. They said the recording is released the next day - i.e. yesterday.

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      Paul Hoover

      Good point. There is no link on the home page to get you to the Dispatch Live recordings. I get that it's supposed to be private, but you manage to get the rest of the subscription-only content to display there.

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      Steve Hayes

      Hey Dave -- Try this. (Warning: Some technical difficulties at the top.) https://thedispatch.com/p/video-dispatch-live-on-two-weeks?s=w

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      1. Dave Pattie

        Many thanks, Steve. Am I missing a link on the site? It's tough to catch the show live on Tuesday evenings, but would love to watch the recording on a regular basis. Appreciate your help and Dispatch's contribution to world sanity.

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  7. Avatar photo
    Will Roberts

    I appreciated this guest and her in depth description of American history.

    I saw some concerns in the comments about leaving out Ukrainian collaborators in the history of the holocaust. I think the main point of her telling of history was to describe the relationship between Russia and Ukraine which I think she did well. I don't think an in depth history of World War II was the point of the discussion. Also, there were certainly NAZI collaborators in France and other occupied territories. This does not mean France did not have a tradition of democracy. It only means when your country is under occupation and you are threatened with death many make morally questionable decisions.

    A no fly zone in Ukraine would eventually produce a no fly zone over the entire world. In the sense that shooting down Russian planes could escalate into nuclear war and after nuclear war there will be no more planes flying in the skies of the world.

    I think the invasion of Ukraine, the invasion of Iraq, and the lack of invasion of North Korea, Britain, France, Russia, Israel, or other nuclear armed powers shows that nuclear deterrents is the only solution for having relative peace in our time. Certainly they are an all or nothing game, either there is no large scale war, or everyone dies, but nuclear weapons seem to be the only invention in human history that have convinced people that the risks of war are higher than the rewards of war. Perhaps the solution to military aggression is not non-proliferation but pro-proliferation. It is in the interest of nuclear armed powers for non nuclear powers not to have nukes. This means they can boss them around and invade them. But if everyone had nukes I think folks like Putin or even folks like George W Bush would think hard before launching an invasion like this. When the choices are everyone lives or everyone dies it seems like even the most belligerent leaders back down.

    Perhaps on Advisory Opinions you all could review the Budapest Agreement and what was promised. From the Brookings institute article I read below there is a difference between assurances and guarantees. It seems like assurances are not worth the paper they are written on and military guarantees are the only things that really matter in international relations. It would have been better for Ukraine to have never given up its Nukes though I understand at the time they didn't have the funds to maintain them or keep them safe. Perhaps the USSR and the USA could have paid to maintain them as long as the country agreed to remain militarily neutral.

    Give me Peace through Mutually Assured Destruction or give me death. It is madness no doubt. But it is the only madness that has convinced human beings to back down from the wars that haunted us for most of our civilization.

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      Will Roberts

      I meant the guests description of Ukrainian history

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  8. Andrew

    Long time listener, first time commenter:

    Hate to slow your guest-historian’s roll, but the Budapest Memorandum provided for security “assurances”, not guarantees. This is not a failure of will by the US to uphold a treaty. Prior to the US signing the memo, numerous US officials made public statements comparing and contrasting the words assurances vs guarantees.

    See here for a recent article breaking it down: https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2019/12/05/why-care-about-ukraine-and-the-budapest-memorandum/amp/

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      Steve Hayes

      It's an important distinction and, while I knew it, it's one I failed to make. (I used the word "guarantee" in the discussion.)

      I think there is a debate to be had about whether what we're doing now meets even those lower standards, but you're right that it wasn't a guarantee. Thanks for the correction.

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  9. Nicco

    Does the Dispatch have any plans to interview Ukrainian-American Congresswoman Victoria Spatz from Indiana?

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      Steve Hayes

      We extended an invitation early last week.

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      1. Nicco

        Thanks, Steve. I’m sure she’s getting plenty of offers for interviews these days.

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    Mike B

    "Winter on Fire" (Netflix) is a good documentary on the Revolution of Dignity, a.k.a. the Maidan Revolution of Nov. 2013 to February 2014. I had forgotten - no, to be honest, to my shame I was unaware of at the time - the really inspiring resistance of the Ukrainian people to the repression of Yanukovych.

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      Steve Hayes

      It really is terrific. The point Ms. Jaresko made about religious diversity was in evidence throughout.

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        Mike B

        Yeah the "Men of Prayer", Catholic, Orthodox, and Muslim all together. And I love the Eastern religious garb!

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