All the Pretty Horseshoes

Libertarian brain.

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Of all the (many) things Jonah hates, he has a unique resentment for the concept of New Year’s Eve. If you share his disdain for the holiday, then try ringing in 2024 with the bitter grumblings of today’s discombobulated, needlessly lengthy Ruminant rather than a trip to Times Square or an overpriced prix-fixe dinner. As usual, a number of urgent questions are addressed: Could Nikki Haley’s recent slavery gaffe tank her campaign? Why is partisanship problematic? What’s the latest on the war in Israel? And how did Jonah learn to stop worrying and (sort of) love horseshoe theory?

Show Notes:

– Jeff Blehar: “Nikki Haley’s Sin Isn’t Racism”

– Jonah: “The Left’s Whackjob Problem—and Ours”

– Michael Lind: “The New National American Elite”

– Jonah: “New Year’s Kiss-Off”

– Jonah: “The Year of the Horseshoe Theory”

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Comments (74)
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  1. Avatar photo
    OK Steele

    This was fascinating to me, I’m much newer to these arguments as I’m younger. I always saw horseshoe theory with libertarians at the bottom, and those comfortable using government for partisan ends going left and right and eventually resembling each other as they reach toward authoritarianism. I didn’t realize the framing Jonah describes. That sounds insane to me

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    Ben Connelly

    I was already skeptical of horseshoe theory but that description made me even less confined. It seems like a convenient way for “centrists” to pretend everyone is more totalitarian than them.

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    The Bell Tower

    This civil war “controversy” is so goddam stupid it makes my brain hurt. If you asked me “Jay, how did you learn to walk?” and I neglect to mention gravity, does this mean I don’t believe gravity is a thing?

    If Haley had some background where she was in the KKK or something, maybe this would have some small merit but her answer is basically correct. Does anyone seriously think she’s pro-slavery or that she doesn’t know slavery was a factor?

    Republicans need to quit giving the left ammunition for their childish approach to every issue. I know that DeSantis sees an opening but it’s just no excuse for giving this incredibly dumb “scandal” legs.

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    1. Sunilsaha2

      I'm copying and pasting my answer from below.

      I grew up in the south and based on my experience I believe the % of voters in southern states that are confederate sympathizers is non trivial. That is why Haley repeatedly tiptoes around slavery when asked about the cause of the civil war. Imagine if someone asked Biden what did Hitler and the Nazi party did when in power in Germany and he answered the same way "... you have factions on different sides and I don't think anyone does anything out of hate they do things out of tradition and out of beliefs of what they think is right. I think you had one side of Germany that was fighting for tradition and one side that was fighting for change." It's not an exact comparison but it's close.

      Check out how she answered in 2010. See 4:20 mark here: https://youtu.be/deiBwwaSGi0?si=COuECm2s3xPf_-xi

      Do I think she is racist? No. Do I think she'll stand up to that element of the party? No.

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        The Bell Tower

        No, it’s not perfect but it’s a fair enough thought exercise. That answer isn’t wrong either. I can see the right jumping all over it given the prominent anti-Semitism in Biden’s party but I would have immense contempt for anyone presuming that Biden himself is an anti-Semite. In fact, I can probably pull up a statement about that wing of his party that’s equally mush mouthed.

        When Trump said his “fine people on both sides” bit, he probably didn’t mean it the way it sounded either. The difference is that Trump long ago earned the opposite of whatever the benefit of the doubt is. I don’t think that’s true of Nikki Haley.

        She’s a cynical politician. When you show me an honest one, maybe that moniker will trouble me more. That is especially true when the primary Republican alternative is Donald Trump.

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        1. Sunilsaha2

          And the last thing.

          My original point when I brought this up in a post way below was that if Biden had said something similar The Dispatch would have lambasted him for it. I don't think he gets a fair shake at TD.

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        2. Sunilsaha2

          Don't get me wrong. I'll take Haley way before Trump. But I'm not excited about her. I'm not excited about anyone. I'm left of center and Biden is more to the left than me but I think he's probably closer to me than Haley. And while I don't think she herself is racist or a confederate sympathizer it irks me at a gut level to placate that wing of the right.

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  4. Pohl

    Jonah has well stated the problems with the more grandiose claims of horseshoe theory, which has a kernel of truth about the political extremes having similar authoritarian temptations, mainly due to their reductive approaches to politics. Beyond that observation, which definitely goes back decades, it’s barely worth being called a theory and definitively not worth any angst. Have a happy New Year!

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    Anne W (Raw5254)

    I’m more interested in Haley’s policies than her “screw up” over the Civil War. Honestly, I’m so sick of the entire “racist” stuff. There’s always a quiz to make sure people answer correctly when it comes to anything that has to do with our Black Americans. You’d think that Blacks, as a whole, were losers who couldn’t do anything for themselves because they are being held back by racism. This is far from the truth, but you’d think we this was the number one issue facing us today. Personally, I find it condescending.

    And, thank you, Jonah, for continuing to stand up for Israel without feeling the need to say they’ve gone too far. This is war, and they didn’t start it. Unfortunately, innocents are injured and killed during war, but the ones who are to blame are Hamas and the Palestinians who support them. And since when did we expect a war to be finished within months? We’re already tired of Ukraine hanging in for almost two years now, and we’re not even giving Israel one year. That’s not how it works, unfortunately.

    It’s obvious that Hamas has played its hand well. Now they only have to step back, and let the news media to their work for them. And, of course, social media is helpful, too. Thank you TikTok.

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    1. Sunilsaha2

      Check out how she answered in 2010. See 4:20 mark here: https://youtu.be/deiBwwaSGi0?si=COuECm2s3xPf_-xi

      You tell me why is she repeatedly unwilling to say the war was about slavery?

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        Anne W (Raw5254)

        Honestly, I don’t know or care. Does it really matter at this point? Part of it was definitely about slavery, but part of it was about keeping the country together. Still, I think anyone who knows anything about history knows slavery was a factor. Why does there constantly need to be a “test” to make sure we get the right answer? Has she ever behaved in a way that leads you to believe she is racist? She has a black son in law, and she also had the Confederate flag removed from the state capitol.

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        1. Sunilsaha2

          I grew up in the Louisiana when David Duke was competitive for the US Senate. I frequently heard the N word used by white students at school. Do I think the south has improved? Yes. Do I think there is still a non trivial amount of racism there? Yes. Do I want someone who is willing to strongly stand up to that element of our country? Yes. Do I think Nikki Haley will do that as President. No.

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            Anne W (Raw5254)

            I think there is probably more racism in the South, but I think you’re wrong about Nikki Haley.

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  6. Avatar photo
    George.Skinner

    Palestinian supporters (and let’s be honest - almost all of them are Hamas apologists) and Trump supporters are symptomatic of a modern dysfunction where people ignore bald facts because they conflict with their desire to feel angry and righteous.

    Progressive support for the Palestinian cause has them embracing a fundamentalist, intolerant, violent, repressive, sexist, and genocidal movement. A Palestinian state has failed before it’s even become a real state. Meanwhile, Israel embodies a lot of the progressive social and economic policies that the left has advocated for years, even the radically proportional representation in elections. Still, progressives just can’t shake their sense of grievance with anything frames as oppressor vs oppressed.

    Pro-Trump Republicans embrace Trump despite his enormously immoral character and long record of failure at almost everything. Anybody with any talent who’s worked for Trump tells them that he’s an incompetent oaf, but Trump supporters continue believing that Trump can never fail, but only be failed. In the end, the shared sense of grievance at being spurned by people they consider elite keeps them loyal to Trump.

    I see Palestinian supporters targeting anybody they consider friendly to Jews, blockading traffic, threatening people, and generally behaving like jackasses. I see Trump supporters doing the same, threatening the lives of people who dare to oppose their glorious leader. One answer would be for governments and the establishment to find their damned spines and make clear those mob tactics are not tolerated. Prosecute the people uttering threats and committing acts of political violence.

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    Tracie

    Thank you Jonah for the NYE podcast. Spent most of Christmas - which I was supposed to work through caring for and rehabbing the sick and infirm - instead on isolation d/t COVID, which I tested (+) for the first time, despite at least 4 shots, and almost 10 years working in a nursing home. (At least one of the current strains is contagious ya'll.)

    I have run out of podcasts, so excellent to have a new one. I like the free association of The Ruminant. Tried to read the G-file and find it too dense and full of wordplay. In most cases, I'd rather hear learned and thoughtful people talk - even to themselves. It's a more natural use of language.

    If I need to dig deep into a subject I read, but I do less of that these days. Yes, I do feel I'm outsourcing my reading to podcasters. I mispronounce words much less often now.

    Happy New Year. In Chicago, we finally got snow .

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  8. Cliffdwellers

    Yes. Your comments about Hamas remind me of Proverbs 8:36 in which the personification of wisdom and prudence states quite starkly: "But he that shall sin against me, shall hurt his own soul. All that hate me love death." (DRA version).

    You clarified exactly the response I've struggled to articulate regarding the mindgames being played by those who pretend the evil tactics employed by Hamas are in the same category as those employed by freedom fighters such as Ghandi and Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Kevin Johnson

    Wow, out with a bang! This has a lot of wisdom in it, even for you. Combined with the curmudgeonly right-on G file about the holiday, you are on a roll, again. Here’s hoping you have splendid time with your mixed species family. You’ve given many of us some splendid times all year. Thank you.

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      George.Skinner

      I agree with you that principles are ultimately the basis for many important decisions. A lot of problems are novel, circumstances change, and the proposals elaborated in a party platform may not be suited to the task. However, I think of ideologues less as principled people, more as people inflexible in their approaches. A socialist ideologue lobbies for state ownership even if the private sector is doing a perfectly reasonable job. A libertarian ideologue would get behind BLM’s call to abolish the police because it aligns with their own philosophy of minimal government even when it’s going to hav massive practical problems.

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