Leeroy Jenkins at Fort Sumter

Fellow Dispatcher David French returns to the program on the publishing date of his new ...

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Fellow Dispatcher David French returns to the program on the publishing date of his new book, Divided We Fall: America’s Secession Threat and How to Restore Our Nation. If you’ve looked around at American politics over the last few years, and you’ve started to view the coastal states and the middle of the country as a bickering couple – wondering, “Why don’t they just break up already? – David’s book is for you. Jonah asks David to outline some of the scenarios by which a fracturing of the republic could happen, and works through the ways that America’s spirit could be successfully restored – all while avoiding an Articles of Confederation-style mess in which the country’s regions become too individually weak to do anything. Join for this enlightening discussion, and stick around until the end for characteristic rankness on Tenet, Amazon’s The Boys, and the mighty Dune.

Show Notes:

–Divided We Fall: America’s Secession Threat and How to Restore Our NationDavid’s book,

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  1. Avatar photo
    Analytic Converter

    Since you know that a group of like-minded people will only become more radical in their shared beliefs, what are you all doing to bring someone into your group here who has a totally different perspective?

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    CynthiaW

    I thought the point about "passive rage" was very informative. It reminded me of Daughter A, who is terribly upset about the disadvantages she perceives attend being an African American in our state. Okay, it sounds like you have some good points. Can you volunteer with or support an organization that is doing something to ameliorate these problems, to help people improve their lives? "That's not the point."

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    Michael Garrett

    Good luck on the college visits. I have done them before and I will resume them soon. I am very interested to read or listen to what Jonah cares to share about this experience as a parent in 2020, and how it compares to and contrasts with what he remembers as a student. Of course, there are others involved and their wishes for privacy deserve respect and take priority. Also, Andrew Ferguson set the bar pretty high with "Crazy U."

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    Kaitlin Johnson

    Totally agreed that in most circumstances our hatred for the "enemy" is more dangerous than the enemy themself in the US right now. I'm in high school and had a school event the other day where we talked about various social justice issues the entire time. At one point we had an "open mic." Some kids started talking about how conservative views are shunned at my school. Other kids hopped on to say that the stigmatization of conservative opinions is a good thing because those opinions "politicize and deny life and rights." I had to add in that I am kind of conservative (actually libertarian, but close enough for these people). All these people know me and know that I am not a bad person, but because they thought they didn't know a single conservative, they were not afraid to label and fear the terrifying "other." I've had to explain the same to my Trumpy friends, that almost all of my friends are progressive but they are some of the best people I have ever met. It's the same as anything: the less you experience it, the more you fear it. And as David says that fear of our countrymen can only become more dangerous.

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    John Bowling

    This little bit of exchange was... interesting:

    David French (describing his proposed deal): And [my idea] doesn't make anybody happy, Jonah, because it's not "owning" anybody. Ha ha.

    Jonah Goldberg: Right.

    David French: But I think at some point - and this actually will segue into the book discussion - we're in a cycle of escalation. Every single time there is a choice: Do you de-escalate national politics or do you escalate? We're saying "Yes, please. Let's just go ahead and escalate."

    Jonah Goldberg: Yeah, so the only place where I would push back on the formulation that you had, because this is one of the things that bothers me, [is that] so many of the responses, including from very close friends of mine who, you know, I care about a great deal. 

    David French: Yeah.

    Jonah Goldberg: And I know they're arguing from a sincere point of view. [But] they consistently will say, "oh, but you can never trust the Democrats." …

    David French: Right.

    The problem here has unfortunately become too common: David frames his position against the backdrop of low hanging fruit. Why aren't conservatives convinced by the unstoppable logic of David? Because they just want to own the libs. The result is that he more and more comes off as though he views himself standing atop the mountain of virtue while those who aren't convinced by his ideas aren't happy because French hasn't descended to their (in this instance) "own the libs" barbarism. 

    I don't think David is doing this intentionally or that he actually has an inflated view of himself. But, unfortunately, he does seem to have forgotten - or at least forgets to acknowledge - the fact that reasonable people, even people who hold to principles, might be unconvinced with his ideas! 

    Jonah, as usual, does a much better job of trying to paint a fair picture and display epistemic humility. (Though I think his G File also gives a false impression that the options are principled deal vs pure pragmatism.) But more often than not it seems like the fringes or worst representatives of conservatism loom too large in French's vision.

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    Jason Gibson

    Avengers endgame most internally consistent time travel???????????

    I would put it a notch below Back to the future.

    I recently rewatched Lost with my kids and actually I think that fits a little better. That the time travel would be built into the cake and that you are actually doing what you had always done.


    Let me ask you this Jonah: We are really supposed to accept that Captain america went back in time and kept his mouth shut about Hydra existing within SHIELD when he was married to one of Shield's big wigs? What in the film gives us the impression that Cap would not be willing to change the past. (which by definition is what the film does)

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    Jason Gibson

    I"m in great agreement with David. I"ve posted this before, but it's an interesting experience being a conservative Episcopalian in america today. Which is something I CHOSE To do. The Catholic church probably reflects my theology better, but I'm profoundly uncomfortable with the herd mentality. Choosing to be Episcopalian did so much to sharpen my beliefs and come to an understanding about what is essential about faith and what we all might be focusing on too much.

    It brings one a certain amount of peace to reside in a tribe where your ideas are in the minority, but you function within that group as an equal. I wish this could happen for more people and with greater acceptance and comfort

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  8. Butch Kamena

    This is late, but it slapped me so hard it has to be said. Jonah mentioned Obama's 2016 Innagural speech about Julia and how it dismissed intermediary institutions. Somewhere around a decade ago, David Milliband, a minister in the British Labour Party, said, "If the Government isn't with you, you're on your own."

    It was the most stunning rejection of any sort of civil society I've ever heard.

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    BrettH

    Really enjoyed the listen. I thought the exact same thing at the end of season 1 of The Boys: How are they going to get out of the corner they just painted themselves into? Ditto too on the sparing use of super villains thus far in season 2 but I’m still a fan.

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    Doug Palzer

    Great podcast as always. You both present your arguments thoughtfully, and even when I disagree, I feel I’ve gotten a thorough mental workout every time.

    I do have one question to Jonah’s point about stepping away from the keyboard when considering eliminating entire classes of people. What say you to the idea that the founders wanted to eliminate the aristocracy as a class of people in constructing the U.S.?

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      Cornelius O’Brien

      Not speaking for the panel but, they did want to eliminate the nobility as a class. They didn’t want to eliminate their rights as equal members of the landed citizens entitled to participate in civil society. Or their actual existence ala Robespierre.

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