Tim Alberta Is Angry

Tim Alberta of The Atlantic joins Jonah to talk about his latest piece How Politics ...

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Tim Alberta of The Atlantic joins Jonah to talk about his latest piece How Politics Poisoned the Evangelical Church. The story and the evangelical church is personal to Alberta, as he grew up a “pastor’s kid” in Brighton, Michigan, and has witnessed a changing of the church from the frontlines. What surprised him about writing this piece? Why is he “angry”? Plus, stick around to the end for some rank, 2024 GOP presidential punditry. 

Show Notes:

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  1. IAN MACAGY

    Churches can and should stake out moral positions on current issues. They should pointedly avoid steering their membership into specific political positions. In a representative republic the voter is accountable for their own votes.

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    Will Roberts

    I am not a regular Remnant listener. But I tuned in for this episode since I am a Christian Pastor. I am an evangelical in a rather liberal denomination. That being said individual churches can be fairly mixed politically. I have served in purple churches that skew red but have a good minority of Democrats in them. I would describe my self as "conservative curious". More conservative on issues of sexuality and abortion but also fairly open to larger government and conversations around racial reconciliation. As such I have gotten different folks mad at me over different points in my career.

    I relate to Mr. Alberta's anger over how the former president has hijacked the Republican party and parts of the church. My anger towards the former president put me in the hospital after January 6th fearing a larger civil war. The first half of 2021 was a very dark time for me. Since then I have decided the anger of man is not the righteousness of God. I have tried to give up anger as a motivating part of my life for my own sanity. I have tried to give up worry and fear for my own sanity. It is not that I am not concerned about what Mr. Alberta writes about. I just don't think him writing what equates to Trump porn pieces will do any good for the church. People who agree with him are paying him to tell them how great they are. People who might need to hear his words will never hear them because he spends most of his time telling them how horrible they are. This is the definition of being of being a logic bully. These Pastors who are grandstanding from the pulpit, proclaiming headlines and podcast in defense of the truth as they see it, what will it all amount to? More than likely they will go to their graves and be forgotten like the rest of us. As the writer of Ecclesiastes says it is all chasing after the wind. He speaks of focusing on the eternal glory of the next life yet he neglects to do so. For if he did he would see all this is but a light and momentary affliction. And he could write with more humility and more grace towards those who know not what they do.

    He wants ministers to "stay in their lane" except of course for issues he cares about, namely the poor and refugees. I care about the poor and refugees. And I think the Government should be more involved in both issues. I don't think government involvement is directly commanded by the scriptures. Nor do I think it is directly condemned. I think it is just the most effective way to deal with these massive issues. That being said I would speak as strongly against abortion because I think the moral imperative is clear. I think the Bible is clear about marriage being between a man and a woman. But as David Chapelle said in his controversial special I can understand that folks who struggle with gender and sexuality are having a human experience and I seek to take a compassionate approach.

    It seems Mr. Alberta does not want the church to stay in its lane but for the church to play in his lane.

    I don't think God is a God of any particular political party. But I do think a clear reading of the scriptures can lead to "conservative" "liberal" or "middle of the road" views depending upon the subject.

    The church is like a marriage. There are some things that you don't need to talk about. Things that would be better dealt with like a water falling off a duck's back. Most churches divide over these petty everyday issues. But there are some world view issues in a marriage, like how many kids you are going to have, that you just can't sweep under the rug. That if you do so you will eventually get a divorce. So his solution of neutrality isn't a solution. His solution of being a Jeremiad towards Trump isn't a solution. I was a Jeremiad and I almost lost my sanity. I almost lost everything for what might be nothing. Maybe in 50 years this will all blow over. Maybe it won't. If it blows over folks will call Alberta an alarmist. If it doesn't they will call him a prophet. It is all vanity and chasing after the wind. He will end up in the ground like me. His name will be forgotten like mine. Only the name of Jesus will be remembered. We will all have to give an account of what we have done to him for better or worse.

    What do I want to the Lord to say to me that day? That I refused to do a funeral for a mother who tragically lost her second adult son? A man I never knew but a man who was an ardent Trump supporter. A supporter of the same man who said so many despicable things. A man who I opposed at great cost to my career. A man who offends me deeply and who's supporters I question their morality. I could have said to that mother I think her son supported the likes of Hitler and refused to do his service. Instead I did his eulogy, a word that means to speak well of. I tried to find the Gospel in his life, and bring that to the forefront. I tried to comfort a family who was grieving. And they were grateful to me. For I hit all the right notes. But it is all vanity. It is all chasing after the wind. I am nothing but a worthless slave of the Lord. I only did what I ought to have done. I loved my enemies. And I loved my friends. When the love of God flows threw you it is not that the distinctions don't matter it is just that you have better things to do then say how awful people are and condemn them even if they deserve to be condemned. I am not their judge. God is. And they will stand before him as I will. No one gets away with anything and we must trust him to do what is right. On that day I plead nothing but the blood of Jesus.

    I care about the same things Mr. Alberta cares about. But in the hospital after January 6th I died on the inside. I still get angry at times. But I know it is all chasing after the wind for from dust we came and to dust we shall return. And from the ashes I found a new desire to love the unlovable for I am unlovable. I put my wife through hell with my worry. I need not put others through hell with my criticism. It is all chasing after the wind.

    It is not that I don't care. I think the only way to deal with the current moment is to live in the tension of the moment. I found this book

    https://www.amazon.com/Love-over-Fear-Befriending-Polarized-ebook/dp/B07JJ2FY2P/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1H0GQ2ZN26FJG&keywords=love+over+fear&qid=1653332828&sprefix=love+over+fear%2Caps%2C109&sr=8-1

    To be transformative for me in thinking about faith and politics. It wasn't the book I wanted to read but it is the book I needed to read.

    It is not that I don't address difficult subjects in my preaching. But I have a policy of not selecting the texts I preach on (instead I rely on the lectionary which is yearly texts selected by scholars.). I have a policy of preparing ahead of time and sticking to what I am going to say even if events happen after I have prepared a sermon ( so as not to be reactive). I take a stance of ambivalence to the text and to the moment. I can talk about something controversial but I don't have to just because I need to be "relevant" or because some political figure said something that pisses me off. That has only caused me suffering in the past. And before I preach I pray only to speak what God wants me to say not having any preconceived notion what that is before hand. As I have done that I have found myself throwing out huge chunks of what I wanted to say because it was not the will of the Lord, even though I thought it was what my people needed to hear. Sometimes I have preached controversial things because it was where the Spirit was leading me in the moment. But every time I do I cash in some of that social capital I have gained by just being with people and ministering to their everyday problems and needs. The family whose son I buried is very grateful to me for my ministry and I have earned credit with them. Maybe I will use that one day to challenge Trump if the Spirit leads me. But I don't have too. Sometimes a private conversation and a few probing questions does more than a podcast diatribe and an Atlantic article. The anti-trump pastor posting podcasts calling out all this nonsense doesn't sound like a good shepherd to me. He sounds like I was. A man full of himself that holds his people in contempt for their contemptable views. But Christ did not say feed his sheep because they are lovely. They do bite and sometimes they do more than that. He says feed his sheep because we love him. As Jonah wouldn't want to go to a church that was talking about Black Lives Matter all the time I could understand why this pastor's people don't want to go to a church where he is calling out Trump all the time. You can't feed your people broccoli all the time. The Lord knows what they need to eat in the moment. Politics is not without its importance. But at the end of the day we are all going to die and be forgotten. So getting angry about the moment is just vanity and chasing after the wind. When we can reach a place of neutrality, not about the issues, but about the moment, our egos, and the future, I think we will be able to deal with the current moment by speaking the truth in love.



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    An Actual Cat

    So Jonah went through this whole episode and never once said "immanentize the eschaton"?

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    Ben Connelly

    Good episode. Have Tim back on soon.

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    Doug B.

    As usual just about everything I would say has already been said, but I would like to comment that I did enjoy Jonah’s so called “podcast” so I made this comment on my so called “iphone” in my so called “car.”

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    CynthiaW

    Mr. Alberta actually didn't sound angry, except when he felt he had to say he was, so I really enjoyed this. Very informative and some new ideas.

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  7. Allan Hardcastle

    Enjoyable and thougtful rank punditry

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    Dan Jett

    One of my favorite pieces of Scripture: Matthew 22:15-22
    15 Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16 They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. “Teacher,” they said, “we know that you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren’t swayed by others, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17 Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay the imperial tax[a] to Caesar or not?”
    18 But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, “You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19 Show me the coin used for paying the tax.” They brought him a denarius, 20 and he asked them, “Whose image is this? And whose inscription?”
    21 “Caesar’s,” they replied.
    Then he said to them, “So give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.”
    22 When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.

    Jesus endorsing the separation of Church and State WAY before it was cool.

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    Nathaniel

    I apologize if this too theological for this forum, but I've been thinking a lot about the question Jonah asked about where the line between politics and religion should be drawn in a church context. I think ultimately there really isn't a well-defined line. The answer appears to me to be way more experimental with a wider acceptance for different political views and a whole lot of grace and love that holds the church together. Generally speaking, politics should not be the thing that drives the church apart unless it is corrupting to one's view of God vis-a-vis what Scripture teaches about God. I don't think that the MAGA people in the church are about to renounce the Trinity or something that grievous, but one of the things that bothers me about right-wing MAGA politics is that Trump made direct appeals to the evangelical church that he would make them powerful and influential in the realm of American politics. I don't see Christ embracing political power to advance his cause - it's actually the opposite. Jesus did not embrace political power as a means to enforce his authoritative interpretation of God's law for the rest of the world. He rejected worldly power to the point where the world decided to kill him. His power is demonstrated when he rises from the dead nullifying (among a vast host of other things) the effects of unjust judgment against himself. The center of the Christian message is Christ beat death. The power that Jesus offers to the world is the forgiveness of sin before God and the ability to love God and people with a pure heart. This power comes from embracing the gospel. From my perspective, the embrace of the political power especially the kind that Trump offers is at the very least dissonant if not outright contradictory to the kind of power that comes from Jesus. What is American politics compared to beating sin and death? This is what makes me sad and angry about preachers exploiting partisan anger for their personal gain. It's what makes me sad and angry about the evangelical embrace of MAGA politics. It's not Christian, and in the end it's not even that powerful in comparison to what Christ offers.

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      Dave T

      David French has written a lot here on this site about the temptations of power to the church.

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        Nathaniel

        Yeah! I am really grateful for him. He has done a lot of good for the church.

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    George.Skinner

    I thought a really interesting point was that this politicization of church was less generally about Evangelicals, and more specifically about charismatic non-denominational community churches. Those churches tend to lean pretty heavily into "feeling" faith in an emotional, impressionistic way rather than the more scripture-focused and even scholarly approaches in denominational churches. That aligns with the populist spirit of MAGA, where fact and complexity are less important than affirming intuitions.

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      Steve Sacks

      As a (recently retired) elder of a Presbyterian church, I can tell you that denominations have their downsides. However, depending on the denomination at least, they do have (in principle if not always in practice) an accountability structure with the authority to confront questionable or clearly mistaken theology and church policy.

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