Ukraine Hit By Cyberattacks

Today on the podcast, Sarah and Steve are joined by Klon Kitchen, senior fellow at ...

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Today on the podcast, Sarah and Steve are joined by Klon Kitchen, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, to discuss the latest in Ukraine after the country was hit by cyberattacks. Plus, how much is the Republican Party’s foreign policy views changing? And what exactly can the Chinese government do with all that TikTok data?

Show Notes:

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Comments (27)
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  1. Avatar photo
    Rob Walcott

    What type of cyber activity should we expect to see here in the US? My political bias may be to blame but if this was happening during Trumps presidency I would be extremely worried about how he may be manipulated by Putin. Should there be any concern for how the general public or our leaders could be compromised or influenced by cyber activity?

    I listened to this podcast on the release date and this thought came to me later... just scanned the podcast and didn't hear it addressed, sorry if I missed it.

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    Ben Connelly

    Have to admit, Sarah came off as a bit flippant at the end regarding TikTok and “who doesn’t have” our data. That’s a mainstream position among people my age and it was back in college and perhaps that’s why it annoys me. It’s a bit like saying, “If the debt’s 30 trillion what’s another billion.” To which I’d say, “every dollar matters.” I’ll claw back every shred of control over my data that I can and I don’t care if my fate is the same as Sisyphus, I’m happy to keep doing it.

    If DOJ has the same sorts of trainings as DOD (I think not), Sarah probably knows that our adversaries abroad can piece together little bits of non classified information gathered from thousands of ordinary citizens and use it to harm us. It’s either Al Quada or the Taliban whose handbook says that they can get 80% of what they need from publicly available information.

    Anyway, sorry for the rant. It’s just that when I hear, “what can we really do at this point,” somewhere deep inside me a reactionary anarchist stirs and I have visions of a V for Vendetta/Fight Club style ending for the server banks of the world.

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  3. Lori Meldrum

    This guy is so great. Seriously, someone should look into cloning Klon.

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    Abby

    Great pod!

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    Denise Cote

    Russia expelling diplomats equals Putin closing the door that Klon mentioned.

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    Adicesa14

    That was a truly great conversation. Sarah and Steve are always compelling, but Mr. Kitchen raised the level of intellect regarding international relations to another level. Thank you. More, please.

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      Steve Hayes

      Stay tuned

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    Andrewabranch

    So is the normal Dispatch podcast not happening anymore?

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      Andrewabranch

      Never mind. Saw Steve Hayes' response.

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    Will Roberts

    I would agree with previous comments that I thought Klon's comments were logically inconsistent. Making the pre World War II analogy about how non intervention is dangerous yet also saying you don't want boots on the ground is inconsistent. It seems the only thing that would deter Russia is boots on the ground. I know people are criticizing Biden for looking weak but it seems other President's would look just as weak. Perhaps the Afghanistan debacle made foreign powers test the waters a bit more but I don't think if we had stayed there that this situation wouldn't have arisen anyway. There was a peace that is being tested. If you are not willing to back that peace up with force than don't complain about what Biden is doing because you wouldn't do anything differently. At least he didn't give specific policies that would differ from Biden's.

    Perhaps Trump was correct in that nuclear proliferation is the key to world peace rather than non proliferation. This wouldn't have happened if Ukraine hadn't given up its Nuclear weapons. Granted it is a high stakes game with a big downside. But every country that has gotten nuclear weapons has seemed largely protected from large armed conflicts like this.

    I felt often with non interventionist sentiments Klon did a bit of a Ricky Bobby esq thing from Talladega nights. He would say he really empathizes with the sentiments of non interventionist and then call them pollyannish and dumb. It is much like saying, "with all due respect" and then saying something disrespectful. Just be honest and say the other side is wrong and you think their arguments are poor. Showing empathy and then tearing apart the other sides arguments feels worse than just tearing apart the other sides argument in the first place.

    Of course I am saying this with all due respect.

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    1. Pohl

      Nuclear proliferation is definitely bad as not many world actors are as benevolent or seasoned as the US and Russia, despite what we see now from Putin.

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        Will Roberts

        I am not sure I agree with that. Every country in modern history that has gotten nuclear weapons seems largely protected from large conventional invasions like this. Even North Korea, which does a lot of saber raddling, seems to have some self preservation instincts and wouldn't launch a nuclear weapon as a preemptive strike. There is a concern of security and weapons falling into the hands of non state actors which is why the international community convinced Ukraine to give up their weapons. But I would think most states spend a good deal of money securing their nuclear arsenal since it is the ultimate deterrent. I think the nature of nuclear weapons would make it easy to trace back to where they came from if a non state actor got their hands on one. And I don't think a state could get away with intentionally giving one away. There would probably be severe consequences if one unintentionally fell in the wrong hands. So from a national security perspective from the perspective of an individual nation the incentives outweigh the drawbacks.

        From the statistical perspective I think there is a good argument to be made that the more nuclear weapons there are the greater chance that something could go wrong and things could spiral out of control. But from a nationally perspective, especially the perspective of a smaller nation like Ukraine or Israel nuclear weapons sound like a good idea. In a competition between a nuclear armed power and a non nuclear armed power the nuclear armed power gets to be the bully to the non nuclear armed power because the rest of the world is afraid of annihilation.

        I don't think there is a lot of logic to nonproliferation besides we don't want other countries to have nukes because then we don't have as much power over them. It is largely a self interested argument from nuclear powers and perhaps a statistical argument about the dangers of something going wrong. But I think it is obvious that the upsides outweigh the downsides for most states. That is at least until we are all dead.

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        1. Pohl

          Well, I’ll just say I would rest easier if no one at all had nukes. It does make some sense for renegade nations like Iran and North Korea to pursue them, but I am not as sanguine about that as you are. If China were not a nuclear power, I would have supported military action if necessary to prevent the Kims from getting where they are today.
          The prerogative and burden of a good superpower is saying no to bad actors, or smaller nations as you have it, when necessary. I don’t see how you can be too troubled by the “logic” of non-proliferation when the alternative is a massive uptick in the statistical likelihood of annihilation, as you even suggest, which is orders of magnitude more likely than in a world of merely conventional weapons. The ideal of fewer nukes in the hands of fewer nations still seems worthy.

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    Octávio Lima

    It is indeed one of the more depressing things the Trump years brought us, the amount of people literally siding with Russia and other nations all in the name of non-interventionism.

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    MarqueG68

    Approx. 39:40
    Klon Kitchen: "That's the kind of thing that sounds like wisdom when it passes through a lazy mind".

    Golden!

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