Your Daily Motte-and-Bailey

On this Ruminant, Jonah finds himself hearing the “binary choice” argument all over again, but ...

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On this Ruminant, Jonah finds himself hearing the “binary choice” argument all over again, but this time about Trump vs. Biden. In his response, he also deals with the ways in which people are failing to take the Reade allegation seriously, how we have a political class of perpetual underdogs, and how dishonest arguments have snuck into our partisan debates.

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  1. Avatar photo
    Michael Ferrantino

    Is there such a thing as an offensive motte and bailey? I have found myself employing a form of argument which involves disagreeing, politely, with (something more extreme than my opponent has claimed), which causes them to retreat to a more reasonable position.

    Example: "The New York Times just published a list of memorials to COVID victims. They do this to whip up sympathy for the illegitimate quarantine. And they claimed that a murder victim in Iowa was a COVID victim! That proves it."

    Me: "The New York Times often gets it wrong, and I usually disagree with their editorials. But I don't assume that everything they publish is part of a Deep State conspiracy, for example, the sports pages."

    Them: oh of course not the sports pages (some more reasonable position)

    The trick is that they never said that the sports pages were part of a Deep State conspiracy. The sports pages serve as a bailey that the person can graciously retreat from, thus revealing their motte.

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    Paul Hoover

    I'm trying to warm up to this weekly rumination, but I'm still struggling. I find it difficult to stay focused on the content without the give and take of a conversation. However, I have no ambivalence about the new intro and outro music: No. If you must change from the original, fine ... but choose something other than a drummer who sounds like he's trying to pass a kidney stone.

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  3. Kindaconservative

    I find myself agreeing more and more with Jonah. Very refreshing views. And I didn't vote for Trump last time but I will this time... wait, wait, wait. I have a reason. I don't want to and I live in Los Angeles so there isn't much reason to do so since it will not effect the elected pres. outcome. I am voting because of the attack on the electoral college. If Trump wins without winning the popular vote, oh boy! I think the founding fathers got it right and don't want any momentum to build up against the electoral college. I'd rather not vote for Trump, but sure would if I was in a different state with my vote being of any importance.

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    WKDawson

    ... 2 + 2 = 4 in base 10. However, in base 4, 2 + 2 = 10. Thus, in fact, 6 x 9 does equal 42 (in base 13).

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  5. Greg R

    Glad there's Swag coming. But what about a grant from the Chubb Group?

    Also, love the Wilson music and always good hearing from Cyrus there at the opening.

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  6. Jordan Henderson

    The "Woodrow Wilson Dirge" played at the mention of his name can be a little loud.

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  7. Luke Thompson

    If the media were randomly choosing whether to follow the correct standards, I would agree that it's better for them to occasionally get it right than always get it wrong. However, when it's just their side that gets the benefit, I don't think that's true.

    Further, it's not a case of getting it right some times, and wrong other times, they're actually getting it wrong in both cases. Here, they were looking for ways to disprove the claim, not find out the truth. They waited forever to actually ask Biden about it to get him on the record. I think it's likely Reade isn't telling the truth, but I don't think the media's treatment of it would look any different if she were.

    Finally, I don't think we should allow people to get a pass this time unless they actually acknowledge that they were wrong about Kavanaugh. We obviously shouldn't apply the Kavanaugh standard to anyone. But trying to use a different standard now without acknowledging that Reade is far more credible than Blasey-Ford (especially by the end) is unacceptable. Kavanaugh is going to continued to be smeared.

    PS: My main objection to the intro music is its length. I thought the other one was too long and this one is longer. Also, it's playing over when you start speaking, which makes it hard to hear. (The same thing commonly happens on the group podcast too.)

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  8. Jordan Henderson

    Let's get the music/logo thing out of the way:

    Ambivalent about the music. I did like the old music, but it sounded too much like a riff of the Superman Theme from the Movie, so that was a strike against it for me because I felt it was derivative. The new music is fresh, but not much to my liking but it could grow on me.

    The logo is fine, I never liked how the old one made you look like a small bear.

    I wanted to make one comment involving the last two podcasts. In your reminiscences of your first Book Review, you rightly criticized the fake rape accusation that the author said was a good thing because it brought about such 'consciousness raising' and improvement of institutions that address real rape accusations. I call that Consequentialism, Christians should be opposed to it based on Scripture (Romans 3:8), but even if you are not a Christian, it's easy to recognize that it is the rationalization of Monsters, what they are doing would be justified under "normal circumstances", but we have to do it now to avoid some greater evil that would come if not addressed. Isn't that the kind of reasoning you used recently with Charlie Cooke when you said it was fine that they trump up charges against someone like Capone if it results in getting him off the street? I know you don't like the proliferation of Federal Crimes and this kind of thing only encourages that to make sure that they can always get someone on something and that's an evil. I think it's dishonest to nail someone on minor charges when you are unable to make the real charges stick.

    This is the problem with the Flynn prosecution. You spoke at length about that at length, but never once mentioned the reality of 'Perjury Traps' or the fact that it appears Flynn was extorted into pleading guilty for the sake of his Son (only saying Flynn was an 'adult' who pled guilty).

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    hajaXavier

    Love the podcast, detest the new music. Easy remedy, FF. If you really love it, keep it. We’ll just get in the habit of FF. I loved the faux gravitas of the horns followed by greetings dear listeners! I never FF through the previous music. I just went back to a previous podcast just to hear it again.

    Podcast music is the new sitcom theme music or commercial jingle. Not a good thing if most of us FF through it.

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    Aylene Wright

    Ok, I had the rare free time to listen to one of these podcasts, and
    ...
    first of all, I think the "gay poodle connoisseur" Motte and Bailey example you use here is vastly improved over the original gingerist one in the print G file. More original (don't think South Park ever had a "soulless gay poodle owner" episode, in any case).

    I do feel compelled to point out, however, that much of the marketing for anti-Trump conservative outlets that uses analogies to "pirate skiffs" and the like, does play into the whole "victim of the (new Trumpian) establishment bravely speaking truth to power" motif that Jonah appropriately critiques when it comes to the likes of Charlie Kirk.

    Now, we can certainly argue that this framing is closer to accurate for Trump critics than it is for Trump fans. But it is a very popular framing. As are the "Look, I am a centrist who calls balks and strikes on Trump, but heroically get flak from BOTH the crazy pro-Trump and crazy anti-Trump people"!

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    1. Avatar photo
      Aylene Wright

      Oops, I meant BALLS and strikes on Trump. Though calling balks on him is certainly a good thing, too.

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