Jesus and Evangelical Politics

Sarah and David (who is stepping in for Steve this week) talk to the author ...

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Sarah and David (who is stepping in for Steve this week) talk to the author of Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation, Kristin Du Mez, about how the definition of masculinity for white Evangelical men has had a damaging impact on the whole country. “Once you have the eyes to see this, it’s hard not to see its pervasive reach,” she said. “The politics and the faith are so intertwined, and that’s what I try to pull through, those threads, and see how the influence really does go back and forth.” Plus, find out what friendly, neighborhood, sweater-wearing, former PBS television star is surprisingly not impressive to the mainstream Evangelical community.

Show Notes:

–Jesus and John Wayne: How White Evangelicals Corrupted a Faith and Fractured a Nation

–Kristin’s Blog “The Anxious Bench”

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  1. Sjwilling

    Exemplar of a Christian man in media? Steve Trevor in Wonder Woman. Gallant, courageous, chivalrous, and gives his life to save many. Not perfect, but that just makes it truer to life. A rare superhero movie where the real hero is an ordinary person.

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    Jason Gibson

    No doubt Paul Scofield as Thomas More is my favorite portrayal of anyone anywhere. It's actually great that you all brought that example up. Paul Scofield as Thomas More is probably my vision of what a man should be. Full stop

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    Jason Gibson

    Double indemnity was directed by billy wilder not Alfred Hitchcock

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    1. Kings Thursday a/k/a Susan

      I came to the comments section specifically to make this same correction.

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    Patti Scriffiny

    So, I was listening to a podcast today and oh my goodness, it is relevant! Sarah and David might want to give it a listen. It is Tim Keller, preaching on the idea of heroism. His text is Acts chapter 5, but he reflects on the model of heroism found in Jesus. It is part of the Gospel in Life series, #565 titled The Hero of Heroes. I recommend it to anyone!

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  5. DocHeartless

    Great podcast! I'm fascinated by the disagreement between David and Kristin regarding the root cause of the problem. Is there something within evangelical Christianity itself that sparks these issues, or helps to breed them perhaps? Or is the theology pure and perversions of it are mere human weakness? It's a critical question that could warrant a whole new podcast (or a series, probably). Plus, Sarah would clearly enjoy getting into the theological weeds more often.
    If you all haven't read Peggy Orenstein's work on the younger generation and their social/cultural/sexual interactions, I recommend it. Her books "Girls and Sex" and "Boys and Sex" are fascinating. She also had a great article in the Atlantic a while back about boys and masculinity. She asked, essentially, what does it mean to be a good man in today's society? It is a fascinating take on your difficulty in finding good pop culture models for men. Orenstein makes the argument that we simply don't have a good model at the moment. For a fun party conversation starter, have people come up with fill in the blank word list for "I really like feminine women because they are ______________." and "I really like masculine men because they are ___________." It is amusing to watch people squirm to find appropriate words for the second question. Bravery, courage, strength, or nobility have all become sexist or pejorative in ways, and so our sons are left without a good model. Consider the all-too-often-used term "toxic masculinity." Well, if you can't clearly define admirable masculinity then your rallying cry of "Toxic masculinity needs to be eliminated" may as well be "Masculinity needs to be eliminated."

    [["What it means to be a man" - https://www.theatlantic.com/press-releases/archive/2019/12/in-the-atlantics-januaryfebruary-issue-peggy-orenstein/603649/]]

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    Philbnichols

    May be an interesting counterpoint to David French’s selection of Thomas More in a man for all seasons would be a great cultural opponent of More’s, the incredible Bible translator William Tyndale. William Tyndale showed incredible courage as he remained faithful to his God in translating the first English New Testament finally being imprisoned in Belgium for the final three years of his life and killed by king Henry the VIII. Somewhat ironically More and Tyndale engaged in a years long spat of correspondence that got somewhat petty and childish on both sides, but that’s neither here nor there. That’s my vote

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    Russell Board

    I enjoyed and appreciated this interview/discussion. Sarah seemed to want the book to be about something other than evangelicalism, and ended up offering suggestions for books she would prefer. ;) It was mentioned briefly, but I think the fact that far more women attend church (Catholic, mainline and evangelical) than men deserves more attention and analysis. It is not uncommon to read critiques attributing this imbalance to the excessive feminization of the church, which keeps men away. (Case in point: http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=14-01-026-f). What's the story here? Can the church be both toxically masculine and excessively feminine?

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    Russell Board

    I enjoyed and appreciated this interview/discussion. Sarah seemed to want the book to be about something other than evangelicalism, and ended up offering suggestions for books she would prefer. ;) It was mentioned briefly, but I think the fact that far more women attend church (Catholic, mainline and evangelical) than men deserves more attention and analysis. It is not uncommon to read critiques attributing this imbalance to the excessive feminization of the church, which keeps men away. (Case in point: http://www.touchstonemag.com/archives/article.php?id=14-01-026-f). What's the story here? Can the church be both toxically masculine and excessively feminine?

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    Emilyasbenson

    I found this an incredibly frustrating interview. While I do know people who grew up in churches that might have been closer to the mold portrayed, I was an Evangelical preacher's kid in the Upper Midwest and this did not at all describe the culture either of my youth or of my current church. Not only has my church tradition emphasized submission, that our fight is not against flesh & blood, etc., but they were/are multi-racial (often far more so than the surrounding community) communities of reconciliation. I didn't meet anyone who favored "Braveheart" until I transferred to a college in NoVa. My mom actually brought the Esquire profile of Mr. Rogers home from a doctor's office so I, around age 13-14 at the time, could read it. My mother-in-law adores Mr. Rogers and his legacy.

    As others have commented, "Evangelicalism" without further qualification covers an extremely broad and diverse range of churches, communities, theological traditions, and cultures. A friend of mine made the point that religion acted out cannot be fully divorced from embodiment in the cultures in which it is practiced. That is certainly as true for "Evangelicals" in the Bible belt as it was for Christians in the first century (and NT Wright has authored the tomes to prove it!). Our ongoing call as Christians in our own cultural contexts is to allow our culture to be challenged by our religion. That goes for immigrant-fearing, Trump-voting, authoritarian-minded American Christians, but it also goes for left-leaning believers who are more comfortable with modern sexual shibboleths than with historic Christian doctrines on sexuality. But as Yuval Levin notes, the healthy institution is one that forms and shapes us. May my submission to Christ always leave me uncomfortable with aspects of the orthodoxy of my age (and ages past). My faith is the rock upon which fallible cultural standards should always break, not the other way around.

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  10. Javier Cortes

    I have to say... every time I read or listen to the topic of evangelicals I'm confused. One thing I don't get is why people treat evangelicals as a monolithic group. I've met so many and been in so many different churches in three different states and they're not all exactly the same. I'm also confused about this conversation about masculinity as it pertains to evangelicalism writ large. Maybe it's because I wasn't raised in an evangelical context like David was but this experience with masculinity doesn't appear to be generalizable. I don't consider myself evangelical but I've attended several churches that categorize themselves as evangelical (and are theologically conservative). Never once have I experienced the type of masculinity that is discussed here in the evangelical churches I've attended. In fact, in almost all of them, they've been very clear that masculinity is not what the culture assumes it is and they try to frame it more in terms of verses such as Ephesians 5:25, "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her". That is to say in terms of sacrificial love rather than the appearance of being a tough guy. I'm sure that there are churches and Christians that follow the approach laid out in the podcast but I just feel like there's something missing in this discussion when we lump all evangelicals together.

    At some level, I almost think that the term evangelical is useless. When you really delve deep into the statistics about this population you see that there's a substantial portion of this population that does not attend church, does not read the bible, does not pray, etc. And yet we use this entire population as a stand in for conservative Christianity. But if a substantial number of the people that are surveyed do not practice their faith, how can we also assume that they should behave in a Christian manner? That's not to say that there are not those who do attend church, read their bible, etc. that could get caught up in the types of things talked about here. It's just to say that there's a range of people within this group, from those who are devout to those who are only vaguely religious, and we shouldn't assume that they are all alike. I almost feel as though we need to break the discussion into sub-categories to try to understand who we are actually talking about.

    For what it's worth I also really think that Sarah's original point about partisanship has much more to do with this than was given credit. Our country is consumed by partisanship that extends beyond so many of our categories. It has led to an environment where people fall for whatever their political tribe tells them. Such that it does not matter whether you are a liberal or a conservative Christian. You will align with your party, and it seems to me that very frequently your theology will align with it too.

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      Emilyasbenson

      Absolutely. I found this an incredibly frustrating interview/book, and I'm an evangelical preacher's kid from the upper Midwest. But I have found that many of my experiences of evangelical Christianity do not overlap with those of my friends from the south, or the east or west coasts, or from different theological strains (I am neither Baptist nor Reformed). I recognized very little in her portrayal, and most of what I did recognize was secondhand through the childhood experiences of friends I met in college from other backgrounds/states.

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      1. Javier Cortes

        Thank you for sharing. I’m glad I’m not alone in this. For what it’s worth all the churches I’ve attended are along the east coast. Something I think is the problem is our propensity to cherry pick those who aren’t behaving well in our media. Many news outlets will only report on a corrupt church, rarely on a functioning church where people thrive. I wish the media would show positive stories about people on both sides. Conservatives need to see liberals doing well, liberals need to see conservatives doing well, nonbelievers need to see believers doing well, believers need to see non believers doing well. That’s not to say that pointing out errors or corruption is wrong but without both sides we will tend to generalize and demonize each other instead of talk with each other.

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