Forgive Us Our Debts, with David Skeel

How should Christians think about debt?

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This week David and Curtis are joined by David Skeel, one of the world’s leading experts on bankruptcy law and the Chairman of the Financial Oversight & Management Board for Puerto Rico, which was responsible for helping the territory restructure and cut its public debt by 80%. David brings a unique perspective as both a legal scholar and follower of Christ, particularly around how our understanding of debt can and should image Biblical values while not being strictly prescribed by Biblical law. 

–Getting Puerto Rico’s Financial House Back in Order (WSJ) – Natalie Jaresko and David Skeel 

–The Law, The Gospel, and David Skeel (The Pennsylvania Gazette)

–Practicing Poetry, Teaching Law – David Skeel

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  1. Wstevebryant

    I really liked this episode. As I was listening to it, a thought came to my mind that I'd like to share.

    As David Skeel explained, the Bankruptcy Code provides debtors with an opportunity to obtain a discharge of their debts (the "fresh start") when they can no longer pay. This is the main reason most individuals and companies file bankruptcy in the first place. Yet, the Bankruptcy Code isn't some get-out-of-debt-free card either. It also protects the rights of creditors and other parties even as it imposes onerous obligations on debtors. For example, the Bankruptcy Code doesn't permit a debtor to just wipe out a secured creditor's rights in its collateral without recourse. A properly perfected security interest is a vested property right, and the Bankruptcy Code protects that right in many different ways, such as § 1322(b)(2)'s prohibition against a Chapter 13 debtor's modifying the basic terms of his or her home mortgage. By the same token, a debtor who hides assets, illegally transfers property, or otherwise abuses his creditors will likely see his case dismissed in short order. This principle of reciprocity inheres throughout the Bankruptcy Code: a debtor gets a fresh start only to the extent that he, she, or it protects the rights of creditors and meets the requisite statutory obligations of a debtor in bankruptcy.

    A similar notion undergirds the remission of sins that we request of God the Father when we pray the Lord's Prayer. My ears perked up when Curtis mentioned the Lord's Prayer at the beginning of the episode because I've recently started learning to read Greek. In one of our classes, the teacher transliterated the line in the Lord's Prayer regarding the remission of debts (or sins or trespasses). In Greek, that line (in Matthew's version) is as follows: "καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν, ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν". Translated more or less literally, this means "And remit (or release) to us the debts of us, even as we remit (or release) the debts of debtors of us." The linking word ὡς is important here. Although usually translated as "as", ὡς can also be translated as "even as". This word also carries a sense of equivalence and conditionality that doesn't translate well into English. As the teacher explained it, when we repeat the Lord's Prayer in Greek, we are asking God to release us of our sins TO THE SAME EXTENT that we ourselves have released the debts others owe us. If we don't forgive, then we can't expect God to forgive us.

    In other words, the forgiveness of sins in the Lord's Prayer is reciprocal and conditional--like the Bankruptcy Code. Just as a debtor in bankruptcy can't expect to get a discharge without both protecting his creditors' interests and fulfilling his duties under the Bankruptcy Code, we Christians cannot expect a free ride for our own sins ("cheap grace" in Dietrich Bonhoeffer's famous phrase) if we continue to hold grudges against people who've hurt us.

    I thought this insight was worth sharing. I hope it adds something to what was said in a really great episode.

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    Suelpeterson

    I found the discussion with David Skeel enlightening. He comes from a different perspective that I have not heard before.
    I have to remind myself sometimes that there are so many issues that ought not be treated in a partisan manner. This is one that should be in that category.
    Spending time with people who are more conservative that me, is healthy. Spending time with people with whom I share a faith makes it even more so.

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    Ben Connelly

    To call Biden’s student debt plan “forgiveness” is a misnomer. The premise is that the government can wipe away consequences for actions. But it can’t. Consequences exist and the only way to take someone’s consequences away from them is to take them upon yourself or pass them along to another person. Christ didn’t erase consequences when he took the punishment that was meant for us. He took them upon himself. If an individual or an organization paid all student loan debts, they would be taking the consequences upon themselves. Biden didn’t do that. The government gets its money from taxes. Or it borrows it (ie takes on debt). So, he either passed the consequences onto other people - many of them poor and uneducated and uninvolved in anything related to the loans - or he simply moved the debt from the students to the government, but the debt still exists just the same (even if it’s a drop in the bucket of the national debt).

    A better solution for student loan forgiveness would be to allow such debt to be discharged in bankruptcy (ie the legal process we already have for debt forgiveness), or to at least ask the real beneficiaries (ie the universities) to take on some of the burden (which incidentally would probably be involved in any bankruptcy situation).

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  4. Bobwaltrip

    Thoroughly enjoyed learning about Puerto Rico and debt. I was amused by the Amex commercials pitching taking dream vacations on credit.

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    Lane

    One of the questions David (French) brought up was that if Bankruptcy = Forgiveness, the shouldn’t we stop getting into debt, just like we should “by no means” keep sinning? I don’t think the question was answered directly as it relates to the Romans reference (though I did miss some things while mowing the lawn, so my bad if I missed it.)

    The assumption in the question is that debt = sin, and I think that is the core false assumption. It’s better to equate food to debt and gluttony to excessive debt (or use sexual immorality or any number of other sins.) Paul doesn’t say to stop eating, he has to stop sinning, which aren’t the same thing. Debt is in the same category in my head based on the conversation.

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      Ben Connelly

      Right. If debt = sin then mortgages would be sinful, and I highly doubt our guest meant to imply that. Likewise for taking out a loan and paying it back etc. A society can’t really function effectively without a means by which people can take on and repay debts (ie buy on credit etc.).

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    Sethallenbarrera

    My class on international economics has just concluded our chapters on sovereign debt. My business law and regulation class is also scheduled to start a unit on bankruptcy very soon. I often think about how to reconcile my Christian belief in forgiveness and mercy while studying. Being a business major often has me learning how best to come out ahead of others in negotiations or maximize returns by any means available. All too often it seems like trying to bring compassion into business dealings is seen as a sign of weakness, ineptitude, or even a breach of duty.

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  7. Nick H

    I practiced bankruptcy law (mainly corporate), and I really enjoyed this episode. I have thought a lot about the parallels between the gospel and the bankruptcy system. I would have also lived to hear the guest's thoughts on restructuring vs. liquidation bankruptcy regimes and the gospel parallels. (I think one of the biggest assets of the US economy is access to the chapter 11 reorganization system. Making failure safer unlocks human potential, both economically and spiritually.) Thanks for exploring this topic!

    (I am interested if Sarah has many thoughts about the bankruptcy system, given her father's job.)

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      Ben Connelly

      I would like Sarah to have her father on AO as a guest at some point. My mom has that same job (in a different state) and she talks a lot about how Christianity informs her work.

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