Making the Multi-Ethnic Dream a Reality

David and Curtis talk to Dr. Derwin Gray about his career path from college football ...

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David and Curtis talk to Dr. Derwin Gray about his career path from college football to the NFL to seminary and, ultimately, to the founder and pastor of Transformation church, a multi-ethnic congregation in South Carolina. Dr. Gray talks about his new book, How to Heal Our Racial Divide and David and Curtis ask him about political and racial tensions in church, critical race theory, and how he proposes reaching a church that’s polarized on political and racial grounds.

Show Notes:

–How to Heal Our Racial Divide by Derwin Gray

–Desert News: “Leaning on Jesus to heal America’s racial divide”

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  1. Avatar photo
    Jeff Walden

    This was interesting and enjoyable.

    There was one part, however, that I really did not like: specifically, the part involving a bunch of criticism of people who say "I don't see color".

    The truth of it is, when people say this, they don't mean it *literally*. Rather, it is a stand-in for the more nuanced argument that they try not to allow color/race/etc. to adversely affect their views of people.

    *Of course* everyone sees color! And sometimes that's entirely right and proper. If you're trying to understand how someone grew up, race may well unavoidably enter into the picture. Similarly for many matters of taste, because taste involves considerable input from social context.

    But, they just don't mean "I do not see that you are black" or "I will utterly ignore that you're black in all my interactions with you". Or similar things for other races, etc.

    I don't think it takes much effort to treat the saying, semi-misleading as it may be, in the far likelier, more steelmanned form. Yet as I remember the podcast two days after listening to it, I *definitely* do not remember Dr. Gray steelmanning speakers' likely interpretation of the words, and I don't remember clear pushback along those lines from either David or Curtis.

    Interpreting "I don't see color" as was done here is surprisingly Manichean, for a podcast that IMO strives to thrive in recognizing nuance. We can recognize race where it plays a real role, while also doing our level best to set it aside when it should not.

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    LynK

    I really enjoyed hearing from Dr. Gray and have already preordered his new book, but I was disappointed in his response to David's "game tape" analogy, which was, essentially, "Why do critical race theory at all when we have the bible?"...and "Instead of doing critical race theory, let's spend four weeks looking at the Good Samaritan..." CRT had ALREADY been promoted/studied in David's church (and in many other public and private conversations across the country), so telling his fellow congregant, "Let's just not explore it in favor of something better" was not an option for David and, likely, many of your "Good Faith" listeners including me. I look forward to reading Dr. Gray's book to learn about new ways to think about about and engage in racial reconciliation in my own locale since attending Transformation Church is not an option for me.

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    O,W.L.

    WOW...wow, wow. Thank you for having Dr. Gray on the podcast. I ordered his book. He is amazing.

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  4. Joe

    I can save everyone a lot of time. Jesus gave us the solution in Galatians 3:28. If you need anything more than that, you need to take a hard look in the mirror.

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    John D. Wright

    I really really loved this podcast. The guest was awesome. I will guy his book. I loved that his answer to everything was "What does the bible say?" A wonderful way to approach so many controversies.

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  6. mle

    This is absolutely my favorite podcast so far. Thank you so much, Dr. Gray. I pray that you continue to open hearts and minds to the color-blessed teachings of Jesus.

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    Mike Sanders

    I stand convicted; thank you for sharing, Dr. Gray

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  8. Steven Vandzura

    David/Curtis/Derwin, thank you so much for this excellent podcast. My wife listened also and we will be ordering the book.

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    Ben Connelly

    This was a very enjoyable interview. I don’t follow football but really liked hearing from Dr Gray! Excellent guest.

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    Kelvin Tsang

    Great interview! Definitely gonna read the book.

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