Should I Stay or Should I Go Now?

Conflict feels like it’s everywhere these days. Church communities, old friendships and even families are ...

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Conflict feels like it’s everywhere these days. Church communities, old friendships and even families are being pulled apart by tensions over politics, the pandemic, race and more. When should we stay in a church or relationship? When should we perhaps leave? Is there a biblical model to navigate these decisions and what comes in the aftermath? Join David and Curtis to discuss how we as Christians should approach these perplexing questions.

Show Notes:

–The Russell Moore Show: Beth Moore Didn’t Expect Us to Be Us

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  1. Avatar photo
    TD

    Staying, and “Success” in churches: something I wrote for my Palm Sunday weekend column years ago at St. George's Episcopal, Germantown, TN:

    From the Editor's Desk: March 22, 2005...
    
Dearest Friends:

    
God does not call us to be successful, just faithful.

    
This quote from Mother Theresa has haunted me all throughout the trials of these past few years at St. George's. It has been hammering away at my conscience, like an annoying song you can't get out of your ear.

    God does not call us to be successful, just faithful.

    
We've all had a very dark night of the soul. People left. Friendships withered. Commitment faltered, leading to budgets cut to the bone. Very good people lost jobs. The process fed on itself, week after week.

    God does not call us to be successful, just faithful.

    
It's Holy Week, our first with a new Rector and our first as we look forward to the great labor before us: building our church and rebuilding our congregation. No denying it: we have a very long road ahead. Our testing is not yet over.

    
God does not call us to be successful, just faithful.

    
So much of our lives is dictated by the yardstick of "success." Testing and measuring up. Winning. Achieving. Hitting the mark. Accomplishing a goal. Exceeding expectations. Bursting pews. Heaping collection plates. Numbers. The "bitch-goddess," according to William James.

    
God does not call us to be successful, just faithful.

    
The going gets tough, as the going always gets tough. The chorus starts up: "Every man for himself." "Devil take the hindmost." "Time to cut and run." “CYA..." And to quote the Passion scripture directly: "Save yourself, if you can."

    
God does not call us to be successful, just faithful.

    
In my mind's eye I see a group of bystanders staring from afar at the Crucifixion. You know the type: casual, silent witnesses at a safe distance; good-intentioned people, but out-of-necessity practical. As the nails are driven in, one of them sighs and says to the other, "Well, that sure went over like a ton of bricks..." To them, it's just another mad prophet, just another "example" made by the Romans, just another broken hope for the promised Messiah. Just another day.

    God does not call us to be successful, just faithful.

    
In a church lit only by candles, music from Taize ceremony: "Stay with me, Stay with me, watch and pray." "Who will watch and pray?" Jesus asks. Who could stay and keep watch in the night?

    
God does not call us to be successful, just faithful.

    
"Stay with me, watch with me," is at once the gentlest, yet most difficult of all the Gospel directives. All throughout the scriptures, He asks for mindfulness, charity, and compassion for others. And for Himself, just that we stay. In a place of desertion, where no reason is left, where hope is gone, where faith has failed, His love still abides.

    God does not call us to be successful, just faithful.

    
Stay. Nurture faith. Share it, and drink it in deeply. Suddenly, your feet touch the bottom of the lake.

    God does not call us to be successful, just faithful.

    
And all the miracles we'll ever need are already out there, just waiting to happen. One's about to happen here.

    Just watch.

    
Easter Blessings, Thayne

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  2. CandS

    Believers fight the battle every day to be more like Christ. Then you have Trump, a person who revels in his sins, and perhaps the person who best exemplifies the very worst in mankind, and what believers try NOT to be. So how then can such large factions of so-called believers look the other way, and worse actually support, a person who is the epitome of virtually everything Christ instructs us NOT to do? It is so difficult for the sensibilities of a believer and non-Trumpers to understand and accept how another believer could justify and rationalize Trump’s behavior. This is where “go” comes into it. Let's face it, these lines of division have been drawn around Trumpism.
    The problem then is this, if one can overlook their complete disagreement with a Trump supporter who is also a believer, the relationship is usually tenuous. If you scratch the surface a little, all the toxicity that fuels a Trump supporter comes out so readily. Then what do you have? A person with whom you can speak with only up to a certain point before the inevitable sociopolitical conversation occurs? Solid friendships and relationships are built on more than just light talk and social chatter.
    This is not like the days when folks could debate Obama versus Romney. Today is different. There is no debate. It is vitriol spewed out from one to another with little or no common ground. How did this happen? Because Trump himself is that way, and his followers follow suit. And being part of a church body who follows Trump is where the lines are being drawn.
    I could no longer reconcile a congregation who would interject Trumpisms and politics into conversations in the foyer after the pastor’s message, nor the pastor who would also throw in his two cents worth of the same. I take some solace, but not pleasure in realizing that my situation is not unique. Maybe I will stay in the long run, but for now, I gotta go.

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  3. JayJoanFry

    Very good podcast. As a pastor for almost 40 years (been retired since 2019), I certainly had people who left the congregation I served for a variety of reasons, as well as those who stayed. I agree with the critique of the "consumer" culture of church members and it is all too common for people to leave a congregation because they didn't get their way or because they were challenged or weren't coddled by the pastor or other leadership. Often the stated reason in these cases is something like "my needs weren't being met" or "I wasn't being fed." In a lot cases they were being fed, they just didn't like to "eat" it. Also, something that occurred to me in response to David's wartime metaphor of "popping smoke" and leaving: sometimes people don't just pop smoke and get out, they either round up their fellow troops to leave with them and/or rather than merely "popping smoke" they spray the area with machine gun fire or fire missiles as they leave. Conversely, some folks who stay wreak great havoc by their toxic behavior, undermining leadership, spreading rumors, etc. If such folks can't stay and be a healthy presence, they should leave. So here's the salient point: just as important as staying or going is the manner in which one goes - or stays.

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  4. Natty Bumpo

    Thanks for this podcast on what I think is an existential question facing the church. This is not necessarily a new question, but is perhaps getting some new steam due to political tensions you discuss. We have always had the opportunity, and sometimes compulsion, to divide in communities of faith. Historically we saw this in response to theology (Reformation and reformations of the Reformation), response to experience (pietism, the Great Awakening, etc.) or response to important questions of faith (slavery, civil rights, gender roles and the like). In recent times, the question of identity as reflected in politics is a stressor. There will always be some causes acting to pull us apart. I think David and Curtis hit on the essential question - what drives me to take action?

    My family left a church about ten years ago, before the current political environment really manifested itself. We were part of that community for ten or twelve years. My wife and I served on committees and as elders, Sunday School teachers, Youth Group advisors and several other informal roles. We knocked heads with some people and got on well with others and weathered most things fairly well but with some sense of fighting city hall on many things. There were a few well entrenched families that would have their way and others like us who were 'new' needed to deal with that. I think a lot of that is the effect of being in a smaller community (even one that had grown quite a bit in the past 10-15 years. I always felt a bit philosophical about these differences.

    What caused us to leave was an event where one of the young male teens was guilty of some action of physically grabbing a girl. I never got a very detailed description of what this exactly entailed. The young man is the son of a woman with who we had served on various groups and knew pretty well. He was always a bit withdrawn and shy. When this happened his mother told us he was identified as having Asperger's Syndrome, which really fit behaviors we saw in him. The church governing body launched deliberations on this case and concluded that the young man would be asked to no longer attend the church. I was told that the elders felt that they needed to do this to protect the body from his behavior and the congregation from legal consequences. I believe the minister spoke with the mother and offered to 'counsel' the boy. My wife and I were both very unhappy about this outcome and conflicted about what we could or should do. We ended up engaging with one of the current elders about this for a week or two but ended up disengaging from the congregation. We felt that we could not effectively continue in active membership and mission with people that would discharge a young person over a single action without a more loving and engaged effort to understand and guide his growth in the church family.

    We ended up transferring our membership to another congregation in a nearby city. We maintained contact with some of the members of the first church but only as a means to explain our reason for leaving. We did not want to make our leaving a statement or 'about us'. I had no desire to be disruptive. We just could not remain without showing our pain over this and had no sense that there would be any reflection by the congregation over this expulsion.

    We continued to have contact with members of that congregation as members of the same community, and went to viewings when elderly members passed away, etc. I remember being told at some of these events that we were missed, and they needed us to return. I always had the feeling that this was a reflection of our relatively high level of participation and financial support, but not any real interest in our views or what caused us to leave. This can all be pretty tricky stuff to negotiate and I knew from reaching out to other ex-members that there is always something to unpack with people if they are even willing to talk. I think most congregations do not put any effort into pursuit. The minister of the church we left (the one at the time it happened) had a view that if you don't want to be here then there isn't much that we can do. I think this is very common.

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    1. P Satter

      As someone who has a relative with that diagnosis, it is too bad the doctor or psychologist for this young person couldn't have spoken by phone (with signed releases) with the minister to answer their questions. It is not uncommon that a young teen could make a social mistake of that sort once due to their lack of social understanding, and respond well to clear explanation, even being horrified they did something wrong, and never do that again. Even worse, being banished from church could be construed by the young person that they were rejected by God, in the same way they are often rejected by their peers. The church leaders should have sought more information out of concern for the young teen and I understand your reason for leaving.

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      1. Natty Bumpo

        Agreed. I believe that all turned out well for him. He ended up going to another church and from what I recall enjoyed the experience there. I believe this was entirely a problem of social understanding as you note.

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  5. Avatar photo
    Tom Simpson

    I think one of the unexpressed assumptions that I noted when listening is that all Christians understand the faith they profess. David hinted at it towards the close when he spoke about people's hierarchy of beliefs or ideas and that some place politics (in this case) above faith. On this point check out Michele Margolis' book From Politics to the Pews. Her research suggests people who return to church after a period of absence are choosing their church based on whether it aligns with their politics. Her study is deeper than just that point but it certainly supports the idea of a hierarchy.

    Given the fact that most Christians likely spend far more time consuming sources of cultural formation not religious formation, I'm not sure what we should expect.

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  6. Avatar photo
    Will Roberts

    As a minister I wish more folks were stayers like David and Curtis. My experience most are goers and the standards for going are pretty low on the laity side. I also think the standards for going are pretty low on the clergy side. My first pastorate I quit because of the culture. The second I hung in there but did not get my contract renewed. My current church I am more content even though my hopes coming in did not match reality. This is often the case. Interviewing like dating is a mutual exercise in fudging the truth. I have found that if you are a goer than you will find something to be disappointed with wherever you go. Instead we should find the secret to contentment in plenty and in want.

    As far as staying I think the New Testament is particularly weighted toward faithfulness, long suffering (patience), and staying. But I would disagree with Curtis point that the main focus of the New Testament is unity within a diversity of opinions. The Trinity did not have a diversity of opinions. They did not spend all of time arguing with each other. Jesus did not say to the Father this cross thing is a bad idea and the father forced him to go anyway. Though separate people they had ultimate humility and thus were always in agreement. The Son only did what he saw his Father doing. The Holy Spirit glorified the Father and the Son. Perhaps there is diversity in the sense of the Trinity having different personalities and focuses. But they are always working together even when we talk about one over the other. I have found that agreeing to disagree is a poor strategy for unity. Even Paul does not call people to agree to disagree but to agree in the Lord (Philippians 4:2). I do think having high regard for each other is a good way to reach agreement. The Wright brothers fought cats and dogs but because they did they built a plane before pigs flew. They had the humility to admit when an idea was working and when the other one had made a better point. Often in our discussion of theology and study of scripture we often will not admit when the other side has a point. For example I worshiped in a congregation like Curtis' that focused on racial reconciliation. While reconciling ethnic differences is a point of the New Testament I am not sure it translates well to all our racial debates. It is also a good point that as a percentage of officer interactions very few unarmed people are shot by police. I don't think Michael Brown and Brianna Taylor should be in the list of Black Lives Matters cases of police injustice. Michael Brown because the justice department disproved that case Brianna Taylor because that was a horrible accident but not the fault of the officers. I said as much at a racial reconciliation conference. It was not well received. The scriptures call us to reason together so we may be the universal church. More often than not we agree to disagree thinking that will bring unity. But when you sweep sensitive issues under the rug or leave them unresolved they tend not to stay that way.

    I do think there are appropriate times to go. But as David said we must be aware of our nature and self examine that nature. Counseling couples in marriage I have found women in abusive relationships that should go but want to stay. I have also met a lot of women who left their husbands for reasons I find questionable. Lori Gottilieb makes this case in the book Marry Him the Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough. She points out how many women are overly critical of their husbands for things that most men would shrug off. In fact 2/3 of divorces are initiated by women for reasons of emotionally compatibility. I have read research that men need to take more feedback from their wives. I think the bigger problem is women having unrealistic expectations for marriage.

    Jesus does call us to shake off the dust off our feet. But that is in terms of evangelizing people who have not heard the gospel. When we make a covenant in a church or in a marriage we should be willing to stay longer in most cases than non Christians think reasonable. And we should learn to speak the truth in love to each other without using catch phrases like stop being defensive or stop taking it so personally. There is no legitimate way to respond to those statements. They are simply ways of shutting down debates that produce uncomfortable emotions.

    In regards to staying together when your politics differ as Christians this is the best book I have ever read

    https://www.amazon.com/Love-over-Fear-Befriending-Polarized-ebook/dp/B07JJ2FY2P/ref=sr_1_2?crid=OAA2VVAG18DI&keywords=love+over+fear&qid=1642370862&sprefix=love+over+fear%2Caps%2C113&sr=8-2

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    Taylor

    I really liked Curtis' point (about 11 minutes in) about the economic and cultural conditioning Americans have to be goers. This advice extends into voting with the "throw the bums out" attitude too. I want to believe these signals help moderate an entity's behavior. Instead, I think we are seeing organizations entrench themselves in positions that appease stayers almost like a survival-mode mentality.

    Enjoying the podcast. I'm sure y'all have plenty of episode ideas, but I'd love to hear your take on Christians and environmentalism.

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    Ben Connelly

    All good points. Curtis’s point about Christ on the Cross bearing the burden of staying with us (humanity) was really good.

    Also did Curtis reference eschatology at one point? Postmillennialism? Dave Bahnsen would be a good guest for the podcast on that subject. I’ll admit I have no clue about anything related to eschatology but it’s very interesting.

    Also, David, if your wife is ever interested in coming on the podcast, I think she would be a good guest.

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  9. Art O

    Sometimes someone leaves not because they don't want what the others want, but because they see a different path to get there. They see that the constant arguing about the differences results in no one getting to the objective. That leaving will allow both sides to take their own paths and hopefully will both find success. I enjoyed the discussion.

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    Carson J.

    Possibly dumb question: Are you guys going to get this show up on Audible any time soon like the other Dispatch podcasts? I know it's not where most people's minds go when they think podcasts but it is dang convenient having the one app for audiobooks and podcasts.

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    1. Avatar photocircle-angle-nib
      David French vertical-nib Author

      Great question! I’m sure that’s an oversight. I’ll take care of it!

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