What Is Courage?

Demonstrating courage is a lifelong project.

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In this podcast, David and Curtis return from trips around the world to give us a philosophical insight on courage. From Churchill to Lord of The Rings, stories of virtue can influence our own actions when tests cross our paths. They talk about the power of narratives and how they can build moral courage and character. Both dig into their past to bring up personal models of strength that have influenced who they are today. They wrap up with a critical look at political institutions under this moral framework.

Show Notes:

-There’s a Question My Confederate Ancestors Taught Me To Ask by David French.  In this April 26, 2020 Dispatch article, David writes about the incredibly powerful pull of tribe over truth.

-After Virtue: A Study in Moral Theory by Alasdair MacIntyre: Alasdair MacIntyre examines the historical and conceptual roots of the idea of virtue, diagnoses the reasons for its absence in personal and public life, and offers a tentative proposal for its recovery. 

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Comments (19)
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  1. Brent

    This was a great and thought-provoking podcast; thanks to you both. It was tainted however by Curtis's myopic view of the negotiations for House Speakership that took place the first week of 2023. It seems obvious that Curtis was only reading the (left-leaning) knee-jerk headlines that sought to portray the GOP as dysfunctional as it struggled through negotiations for rules for its new majority. Curtis was correct about Kevin McCarthy being willing to sacrifice most anything in order to rise to Speaker. I would argue, however, that the GOP dissidents played their hand cleverly in order to win rules changes that will ultimately be beneficial for the lawmaking process, for democracy, and for the American people. I would urge you, Curtis, to go back now and read The Dispatch's own reporting about all this! McCarthy will not be nearly as powerful a Speaker as his predecessor (and that's a great thing); congresspersons will have a lot more time to read bills and debate them; and Congress finally has a chance now to pass a budget. That's not to say that some of the dissidents aren't wacky characters; they are! (As were some of McCarthy's stalwarts.) But this was not "illiberalism" on parade, but rather democracy in action, which isn't always pretty. In the end both sides were forced to compromise. Ultimately the dissidents were able to extract some very worthwhile concessions from McCarthy; in fact, I would contend that in retrospect they displayed the kind of courage that you and David described so well in the rest of this podcast.

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    Crossmarked

    Dear David,

    In appreciation for your writing help keep me sane since 2016, I gifted you a fiction audible book that is about sacrifices, friendships, courage, etc. You are under no obligation to read, or even accept, the gift. But I wanted to make sure that my email sending the redemption code was not dismissed as spam.

    The book is the first volume of The Passage Trilogy, by Justin Cronin, which I have now read 4 times. It is my annual LOTR ritual. Here is a description of the book: https://justincroninbooks.com/the-passage-by-justin-cronin/

    It is a book for adults, about a little girl who saves the world.

    Again, thank you for your writing over the years. Congratulations on your new ministry with The NY Times. And thanks for the Good Faith podcast.

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  3. Derek E. Karchner

    A really fantastic discussion overall. Tying moral courage to the power of narrative is so good. Tolkien's vision, in part (yes, in addition to much more), with LOTR was to use myth to inspire that sort of courage and identity and love that it came out in this episode.

    However, I never thought I'd group Curtis and Eric Metaxas together, but after Curtis' lumping in the dissenters from a Kevin McCarthy speakership with the Nazis, I found myself fixated on his (seemingly) careless use of this comparison.

    I don't mean to misquote him, but he basically said the objectors to a Kevin McCarthy speakership ("illiberal right" he called them) were somehow akin to the Nazis. As if supporting a (thoroughly unprincipled and dishonest) Kevin McCarthy speakership were the right side of history? It's simply not true that all of those dissenting (including those with certain principled objections that have long since been publicly disclosed -- e.g., Chip Roy) are illiberal or are akin to Nazis. I can see certain personalities being fairly portrayed as part of the "illiberal right" that are outside of the norm, but these were certainly on both sides of those votes (see Marjorie Taylor Greene).

    I don't think this what Curtis meant. I can only assume there is more nuance to his perspective that time did not allow them to unpack. But, man, echoes of the Eric Metaxas critique about the U.S. slouching toward (running toward?) Nazi Germany in our rush to enshrine illiberal progressive policies were about the last thing I'd expect, or want, to hear on this podcast.

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    Ben Connelly

    Good first podcast of the year. I like the message: beginning with a posture of humility and emphasizing virtue ethics and habitual practice (courage in the little things). Glad the podcast will be sticking around in some form.

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    Medhistprof

    We teach history because it contains story

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  6. Laurie

    Thanks for the podcast. I had so many random thoughts as you spoke:
    1. I love that Eowyn scene from LOTR and I love that Curtis got emotional recalling it.
    2. When you spoke of moral leadership holding society together, I thought of a recent article in the the Atlantic. In telling of her flight from Afghanistan, a young woman said that at age 21 she had literally never known anyone in the Taliban, and after the fall of Kabul they seemed to be everywhere, and with guns. It's like evil was waiting for the opportunity to take over when virtue was exhausted.
    3. Thinking of the SBC statement from the 90's predicting the moral fallout from a wicked leader, and how prescient it was, but how they couldn't see it when it did happen.
    4. In a Hidden Life (Spoiler!) the man is not asked to renounce his faith or murder innocents. It was a small enough pledge that all of his neighbors could do it. Among my Christian friends there are a few who seem to think that in their own lifetime, their home will be raided, Bibles confiscated, and a sword will be at their neck telling them to renounce Jesus. I'm not being disrespectful here, and they are good people, but such fear is what drives conspiracy theories, and led to Jan. 6. Being brave starts with telling the truth and expecting others to also.

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    1. Brendan Bossard

      My ten-year-old son has a serious crush on Eowyn just from listening to me read the book to him. He has not seen the movie. This makes perfect sense. Who cannot love a woman who puts her life on the line against cultural norms in forlorn hope for a righteous cause? LOTR is filled with other examples as well. Sam Gamgee is not the least. I wept when I read the passage in which he carried Frodo up the slope of Mt. Doom to my son.

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      1. Laurie

        That is a precious literary crush! You never know what is going to hit you. For me it's: "We set out to save the shire Sam...and it has been saved...but not for me."
        Also the 90's movie Black Beauty has a final reunion scene (along with a beautiful score) that would have me bawling every time!

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    Marc Frischhertz

    If you like MacIntyre, please check out Emanuel Levinas. His writings on the Face of the Other are incredibly insightful and related to the discussion of courage and Nazis

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      Curtischang1

      Thanks for the suggestion, Marc!

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    Joshua Heslinga

    RE Curtis's criticism of superhero stories and David's (unspoken on the pod) rejoinders: I want the rejoinders! Please write a column dealing with it in detail, David! Because Curtis's criticism of Marvel movies seems to have a point overall.

    Marvel has interesting, even compelling, character stories of dealing with the power that one has or of the struggle to use one's power for good, and there are sacrifices by people who have great power. But many of the key Marvel characters are either superhuman to begin with or are people who became superhuman, often through no great struggle of their own. They then have to deal with the challenges and character questions that arise -- they are not ordinary people demonstrating character. Captain America is arguably the exception that seems to prove the rule.

    I'd in particular be interested in David's assertion that DC is better in this regard because it's not immediately obvious why that's the case. Superman, Wonder Woman, and Aqua Man are superhuman. Batman is the DC comparator to Iron Man, a billionaire who creates a superhero out of himself. The Flash has a similar origin to the Hulk -- lab accident/experiment. Why/how is DC better?

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    Joshua Heslinga

    RE David's departure to the NY Times and the future of Good Faith: Of course we'll stick with the podcast. Of course we can and should be hopeful about what you have planned for its future. And you made the best case yet for why it's good for everyone else that David take the NYT opportunity. But it was disappointing to hear you say only that you can't yet say what's coming. By comparison, when Advisory Opinions dealt with this weeks ago, they were able to say upfront that David would continue doing AO. The clear implication is that's not true about Good Faith.

    I would also add that I don't think it's true that enough (or even much) has been said about The Dispatch post-David. Jonah has said David's irreplaceable. Everyone has said how much he'll be missed. These things are good and appropriate, but very little has been said about The Dispatch. Will one or more people be brought on to try to bring similar perspectives and areas of interest to David? Or will The Dispatch narrow its focus? I haven't seen anything on that. (Someone feel free to point me to it if I've missed it.)

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    1. Brendan Bossard

      Joshua, I share these concerns. I think, however, that I would be remiss to lean too hard on David to be the shining light. There are many other shining lights. We just need to give them a chance. We need to give ourselves chances, too. I am considering submitting an essay to The Dispatch that could be appropriate for a Sunday column, for example. I do not have the connections he has or the expertise to be the same type of journalist. I think I can relate Christian theology to real life, though, in a way that can help people through their religious, social, and political struggles. Who knows? Maybe I will strike out, but I cannot hit a homerun if I do not swing.

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  10. Russell J

    The comments about a leader’s character making it either easy or hard to take the virtuous path resonate. You could say I have experienced both situations but that was an idea that would have helped in my most recent bad leader experience. Enormous pressure to either go along with something unethical or to retreat to some position of ignorance about any wrong.

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