Ersatz Christmas

On this episode, Jonah is joined by Charles C.W. Cooke of National Review. It’s an ...

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On this episode, Jonah is joined by Charles C.W. Cooke of National Review. It’s an eclectic mix today, as the duo gets into a good deal of punditry surrounding the Trump campaign’s election challenges and then move onto the future of conservatism (or “conservatarianism” in Charlie’s case) as a whole before tying the whole thing up around the Thanksgiving theme of gratitude. As a freshly minted American living through a relatively chaotic period in our politics, what is Cooke grateful for when it comes to the U.S.? During this holiday season, Jonah thinks we might all do well to be grateful for the fact that “we still live in a country where following politics is essentially a hobby … and isn’t a matter of survival.”

Show Notes:

–Charlie’s main podcasting gig

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  1. Very Old Grumpy Guy

    I would like to defend those of us whose entire frame of mind has been brightened by the thought that we have a break from Trump - for at least 4 years. It was not the incessant lying, it was not attacking states where over half the country lived, it was not even the TOTAL disregard for the American devotion to a rule of law with the call for a rebellion against sitting state governors, that darkened our days. It was the total abandoment of the concept that America is the best in the world and can compete with anyone. anywhere. We as a people need protection from the big, bad, world. That second rate carnival barker went a long way toward destroying the confidence of all of us, not just those who opposed him. Now, the problem is that the political party most who visit this site put our faith in, must now kow tow to the ring master. What ideas might we expect from the party of ideas now?

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    1. JohnO

      I somewhat agree. There will be a definite positive in Trump not being president, but he will not be gone. I think he will likely be quite visible/audible on Twitter. I wouldn't be shocked if he holds public events after leaving office. So, since you're speaking of the morale effect it seems, it depends whether people are really bugged by somebody who is president saying all the stupid things he says, or somebody with a major following saying them. Though as far as actions, he won't be president and that's certainly a difference as to what he can do.

      As to the party most who visit this site put their faith in, as far as *commenters* ('visitors' who aren't commenters are invisible) I would say that's the Democrats actually. Those commenters generally insist they come here for a different, but honest take on things not because they like hearing people on the right bash Trump. And maybe that's true, we'll see as the subject matter tends to shift toward evaluating Biden. Back to start, for me as conservative Trump not being president is a positive, Biden being president is a negative. No ideas are better than bad ideas, though good ideas would be best of course

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      1. Very Old Grumpy Guy

        Personally, while I might have had a preference for who I rooted for to be president, before Trump, I never really *cared* who was president. This is the first election I actually cared. On another note, I expect this is the last election in which I *want * at least one of the candidates for president to win. I expect the Democrats to lose control of their party (like has already happened to Republicans) by 2024 and I will have a choice between “new Trump” or “new Bernie”. I get chills just thinking about it.

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  2. pvandegrift

    Concerning a British celebration that might be similar (on a much smaller scale) to our American Thanksgiving: Lammas Day (August 1) is kind of like Thanksgiving. It is a feast/mass that is a celebration of the first fruits of the harvest. Loaves of bread are brought to the church...there are processions to bakeries, etc. It is...I think...a tradition particular to the Church of England. I was unaware of it until this year when during the early days of the pandemic here in the US ...and the full on lockdowns in England ...I started watching IG Live tutorials from Bread Ahead Bakery in London. Bread Ahead...along with Borough Market and Southwark Cathedral...mark the day together as a community each year. Kind of a cool tradition.

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  3. Laurie

    Jonah asked a question that I have wondered, "what has happened to people that I used to respect who are all in for conspiracy theories now?"
    He was referring to Guiliani, but we all have people in our personal lives like this. Was this tendancy always there, and we just never saw it? Or was something always a little off?

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  4. bcarlin

    C.S. Lewis didn't actually write the "fixated on politics" line in Screwtape Letters, or elsewhere that I've read. I think the quote is apropos, just not attributable to Lewis.

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  5. David B.

    My opinion: on the main thrust, Charlie was right and Jonah was wrong. Primarily:
    1. The best way to shut down the Trump conspiracy theories is to shine the light of a court proceeding in them.
    2. Someone has to represent t him for that to happen. I don't *like* lawyers who are willing to bring arguably frivolous lawsuits to trial but I could give them a little leash for doing what their client (the POTUS by the way) wants them to do. But these cases are primarily on Trump, not them.
    3. If none of Trump's lawyers had ever spoken to the press, I'd be a lot more inclined to just say, "Yeah, let's let the crazies get shredded.in court and then this will be done." The huge work they did in trying to undermine public opinion was done out of court. If they had stuck with their courtroom duties (where they are by law a little more closely tied to the truth), there would be a lot less disgust towards them.

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    Rick Henderson

    I was delighted Charlie said his was an “Anne Elk” theory.

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  7. Rick Osial

    That the author of the much under appreciated book “Tyranny of Cliches” would incorrectly use a cliche is incomprehensible. /sarc/

    For accuracy’s sake, the bottom of the totem pole is the place of honor as it would be at eye level and the carver would not have his most important artistic work relied upon to some apprentice or intern.

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    Rajeev

    While I enjoy many of the points they made on the podcast, I have a few quibbles with some of the points made. I'm glad that they debated some of these but there are somethings that I was surprised were not included in the debates:

    1. No moral relativism between what is going on right now in regards to the election versus 2016. If Trump had come out and stated "I would've won if not for the coronavirus ruining the perfect economy I built" then that would be fair. Probably not true (though possible) but that is the equivalent to the 2016 criticisms from Hillary backers and others. They complained about the electoral college, James Comey, Russia hacking, Wikileaks, etc. that effected the election. They had some very good points (James Comey & Wikileaks) and some not so good points (electoral college, the legality of accepting foreign help). But it was all within our normal parameters. Trump is basically as Jonah puts it so well trying to steal an election that he lost by a huge margin. There is zero truth to it and the damage it is doing to the country is intense. Hillary Clinton and the DNC did not try to get the Montana governor to send different legislators to try and overturn the results. I think it does a disservice to compare anything trump is doing now to any Democratic statement or effort.

    2. As for the lawyers, Jonah is right. Lawyers have higher standards than political pundits. They are basically asking the public to essentially provide evidence of something they know didn't exist. The more this goes in court the more it appears legitimate to people who don't follow politics closely. Any lawyer taking these fraudulent cases is trying to perpetrate a crime against the US.

    Even the worst criminals need defense attorneys. But that is not what is going on here. Alan Dershowitz uses that excuse that the reason he defends Epstein and OJ and others is because of the right to counsel. Which is totally BS because he won't defend the Boston marathon bomber or a mass shooter of a school. The common thread with all of his clients is that they can pay him millions not that they represent the worst but need access to the best counsel. Same thing here these are fraudulent cases and the lawyers are just doing it to make money that they know they can get from Trump's cult followers. No principle there...if there was they would shut up and actually present a real case in court.

    3. Yes politics shouldn't ruin our mood every moment of every day. But the Trump administration enacted policies that did exactly that for a part of the American population. The policies like young child separation were abhorrent and had a profound impact on the very ideals Charlie praises about our country. Bill Galston of the WSJ said we overuse the phrase "shock the conscience" but he rightfully stated that yes in this case it did exactly that. Francisco Galicia was an American citizen whos civil liberties were violated in the worst way because of his skin color and language powess:

    https://thebulwark.com/we-jailed-an-american-citizen-for-having-brown-skin/

    So while yes I agree that I wish politics wouldn't affect our lives and no politician advocates for shocking events like George Floyd or school shootings, this current administration has put in policies that do shock the conscience of America and has tangential to those policies Trump has given consent to the worst elements in society enflaming situations over and over again like Charlottesville supporting vigilantes and violent extremists like the Proud Boys. I wish there would be an acknowledgment that not all attention paid to Trump is about a few bad tweets. I'm thankful none of his more evil policies directly impacted me. That doesn't mean that I can pretend that it's fine just because it didn't impact me.

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    Gideon

    Whom.

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  10. Kevin Sunday

    I don't know if you ever provide transcripts of these podcast but at the very least I would appreciate a transcription of Cooke's response on why he is grateful for the nation and why one should be conservative of classical liberal values.

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