Making History

On today’s Remnant, Francis Fukuyama finally stops by to discuss his new book, Liberalism and ...

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On today’s Remnant, Francis Fukuyama finally stops by to discuss his new book, Liberalism and its Discontents, and Jonah can barely contain his enthusiasm. The resulting conversation is a feast of philosophical nerdery, which explores the origins of the liberal tradition, the state of liberalism in contemporary America, and the future of the free world. How did “neoliberal” become such a popular pejorative? What are the limits of federalism? And should we be optimistic about the political trajectory of the United States?

Show Notes:

– Liberalism and its Discontents

– The End of History and the Last Man

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  1. Avatar photo
    The Bell Tower

    What a great interview with Professor Fukuyama. I’ve always regarded “state’s rights” as the straw man bastard of anti-federalism. The latter is enshrined in our Bill of Rights and ingrained in the American constitution. And I agree that slavery exposed the limits and weaknesses of federalism (originally anti-federalism).

    Like equality and liberty, federalism and anti-federalism must be balanced or one will consume the other. David French recently quoted Adams’ point that virtue is the limiting principle of liberty. Without it, a people are incapable of self government.

    But this discussion clarified another Adams point that he made frequently but I never fully appreciated. He wrote to Jefferson:

    “Will you tell me how to prevent riches from becoming the effects of temperance and industry—Will you tell me how to prevent riches from producing luxury—Will you tell me how to prevent luxury from producing effeminacy intoxication extravagance Vice and folly.”

    Poverty and struggle teach humility, which is an indispensable characteristic for liberalism. Molesworth, in An Account of Denmark, noted a similar dilemma:

    "An English man should be shewn the Misery of the enslaved Parts of the World, to make him in Love with the Happiness of his own Country; as the Spartans exposed their drunken Servants to their Children to make them in love with Sobriety."

    Immigration, to my mind, is the most important tempering mechanism we have to instill this humility. Refugees from oppression will always value their earned freedom more than those fortunate enough to be born into it. This is where my party has failed more than anywhere else.

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    Ben Connelly

    Very interesting podcast. I liked Mr. Fukuyama’s pithy description of liberalism at the beginning. However, I’m not sure about that “neoliberal” stuff. Jonah, I’d like to know your thoughts on whether neoliberal=Chicago economics or not. I thought it meant Third Way Clintonianism.

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  3. GregS

    I love how Jonah still doesn't feel like he can actually *blame* people like Eastman. He always says "they went crazy" or "they were ensorcelled" - giving a passive cause to their actions - rather than, "my god, they were fascists in hiding all along!"

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    1. Photo of Jonah Goldbergcircle-angle-nib
      Jonah Goldberg vertical-nib Author

      I have no problem blaming Eastman and people like him. I really don’t know what you’re talking about. The last thing I’m doing is offering anything like an insanity defense. Maybe you’re a closer student of Eastman than I am — very possible. So if you can point me to pre-Trump evidence of Eastman scheming to overturn elections and the like I’d love to see it. I don’t mean that as a defense I mean that as a plain statement. Maybe I just know too many people who used to be sane and sensible who no longer are and I’m trying to understand it. But I honestly take offense at the insinuation that I’ve let anybody off easy Greg.

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      1. GregS

        I'm sorry that I offended you.
        I am not a close student of Eastman, and I have no evidence of him scheming to overturn an election prior to the time he schemed to overturn an election. However, while you say that you are not offering an "insanity defense", you say later on in this very comment that you know "people who used to be sane and sensible who no longer are and I'm trying to understand it."
        I think that *is* letting people off easy.
        You are assuming that they were sane and sensible before and then they changed.
        Perhaps they were pretending to be sane and sensible before, and are now revealing what they truly believe.
        What is there to understand? They were fascists who hid their fascism as long as they thought that open fascism was a losing position. Once they thought that fascism had a chance of winning, they put it out in the open.
        On January 6th, there were many Republicans like McCarthy or talking heads like Hannity who said they were mad about what was happening - because they thought that the events would damage the GOP and Trump. They seemed sane and sensible.
        However once it became clear that the base would forgive January 6th, and that the attempted coup wasn't going to be a millstone around their neck, they stopped being mad about it. They didn't stop being sane and sensible - they were always just pretending.

        We're all blind to our own implicit biases, and I'm no better. But for a guy who goes on constantly about liberal media bias, you seem curiously unable to ever consider the fact that perhaps you have some implicit biases yourself.

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      The Bell Tower

      Fascists in hiding? Were they just waiting until it was safe to come out? And if so, what made them feel suddenly safe?

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      1. GregS

        I don't know them - I can't speak for why they did what they did.
        But it is just as much of an assumption to say that their actions around January 6th represented their true goals as it is to say that they suddenly "went crazy."
        Perhaps they suddenly revealed their true selves, and their actions before were the facade.
        As it is, in an excellent demonstration of the "media bias" that Jonah loves to complain about, he gives Eastman a passive reason for his behaviors - he "went crazy."

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  4. Avatar photo
    BWG

    Really good discussion. But how do you convince the masses of the importance of classical liberalism? God bless Liz Cheney for speaking the truth, but that style clearly did not knock it out of the park. Maybe it takes lots of Liz Cheneys chipping away at those strongholds to bring them down eventually.

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    Mkapnick

    It wasn’t clear to me if Jonah agrees with Fukuyama, that the Right is a bigger threat to democracy than the Left. Sadly, I agree with Fukuyama but was not sure if Jonah does.

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    1. Avatar photo
      The Bell Tower

      I always think of the which side is a bigger threat as the my dad can beat up your dad of political discussions. They’re both a threat and whichever one gets too much power first will create trouble for all of us.

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  6. Avatar photo
    The_Mat_Man

    I was looking forward to this discussion. I'm going to be honest. Fukuyama's audio was so bad, I quit it about 5 minutes into my commute and switched to the Dispatch's Flagship Podcast.

    His audio was far too quiet with respect to Jonah's, plus there was a weird echo where it sounded like he was in a bathroom. Maybe it'll be better when I'm washing dishes tonight with proper earbuds. I recall that this is the second time I've complained about audio quality with one of Jonah's interviewees, and never any other Dispatch podcasts. Last time, as with now, my primary issue was the lack of normalization between the two speakers audio volumes.

    I also note I'm the only one complaining about that issue in this commentary thread, so maybe I'm overly sensitive.

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      Tkdc926

      I agree with you, sir. I thought Mr. Fukuyama's audio quality was really poor.

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    2. Photo of Jonah Goldbergcircle-angle-nib
      Jonah Goldberg vertical-nib Author

      Well, first I'm genuinely sorry that the audio was bad for you. Second, when you do podcasts remotely as often as I do, you put yourself at the mercy of whatever equipment and connection the guest has. Perhaps the reason you haven't complained about the other podcasts is that we control the equipment for the rest of them (unless one of us is on the road and we're at the mercy of wifi-on-the-road) and therefore have higher quality and more quality control.

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      1. Avatar photo
        The_Mat_Man

        Edit: I should note that I listen at 1.5x speed, so issues are probably going to be accentuated... How that you're feeling better soon.

        Thanks for the reply. I figured that the main issue, outside that time David recorded in his bathtub or whatever, is they you can't control what's on the other end. If it isn't being done, recording the audio streams seriously and normalizing them realative to each other might help.

        Using earbuds without road noise really helped. I really enjoy your interviews, and this is no exception. I disagree with Fukuyama about Jan 6th being the tipping point concerning Trump. I feel that the moment he said the election was rigged or stolen without evidence, was the tipping point. I guess in my mind there is norm breaking, and there is norm breaking. Of course, the ground work for that claim was being laid in late September or October. I just refused to accept it was happening at the time.

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          Narwhal

          1.5x speed? Seriously?

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          1. GregS

            2x is better. You can listen to twice as many podcasts. Time is a precious commodity...

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            The_Mat_Man

            Yes, 1.5x. I got used to 1.25x, and I can now follow along at 1.5. That lets me finish a 1+ hour Dispatch Podcast split between my morning and evening commutes.

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            BWG

            1.25x works pretty well- a bit of distortion but not bad. Certainly prefer 1x, but only so much time available.
            I didn’t have as much trouble w the audio on this as on the Dispatch pod with Steve, David and Jonah. I think it would help greatly if they all used one type of mic that was configured to always be the same distance from their mouths, as when using headphones.

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  7. red

    Get well. Thank you for this.

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  8. red

    Get well. Thank you for this.

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  9. Avatar photo
    Stenny

    Fukuyama is insightful in saying, in effect, that the problem with liberalism today is that it is being taken to extremes A critic, however, would render the same sentiment another way: the problem with liberalism today is that it is being taken to its logical conclusion. That is, the problem with liberalism today is not immoderation but rather the ever-more successful implementation of liberal ideals.

    I think Fukuyama arrives at this conclusion by a pretty elementary misunderstanding of virtue. He states that the Greeks held that virtue is not having too much of any particular good thing. This is simply a misreading. Virtue is rather the mean between two opposing errors (ie extremes), and you can never have too much of whatever that mean is. If liberalism is a virtue, it cannot be taken to extremes, and you cannot have too much of it.

    Now perhaps this could be reconciled if Fukuyama really means to say that liberalism holds different extremes in tension, and thus the problem today is that different groups are not maintaining the liberal mean but rather giving into one or the other extreme in various ways. That is not, however, liberalism taken to extremes but rather liberalism giving way to extremes.

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    Seth B

    Hats off to Jonah, who while feeling physically wretched remained in fine mental fettle.
    (That Fukuyama fella was insightful, too.)

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