Austere Religious Scholarship

On today’s Remnant, recorded in the wilds of Oklahoma, Jonah once again attempts to fuse the ...

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On today’s Remnant, recorded in the wilds of Oklahoma, Jonah once again attempts to fuse the weekend Ruminantformat with that of a supplemental episode. He begins by elaborating on his pro-life views and what abortion law would look like if he were made czar for a day. Afterward, a nerdtastic dive into the morass of intellectual history begins, as Jonah uses an extract from The Tyranny of Clichés (which is still available from all good book sellers, hint-hint) to explore what separation of church and state really means in American life. Tune in not just to hear Jonah’s patented progressive-bashing, but to either commend or correct his pronunciation of a certain troublesome name.

Show Notes:

–The Wednesday “news”letter

–Biden’s Catholic quandary

–Moynihan on partial-birth abortion

–Locke’s “A Letter Concerning Toleration”

–Don’t burn the witch

–JFK (or possibly Mayor Quimby) and Catholicism

–Mario Cuomo’s Notre Dame speech

–Jonah’s deep affection for Richard Ely

–Barack Obama, arbiter of sin

–Seinfeld on spite

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Comments (16)
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  1. Avatar photo
    Anne W (Raw5254)

    Your thoughts re abortion seem very reasonable to me, and I appreciate what you had to say.

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    Tracie

    As a lifelong lefty and pro-choicer, I'm just gonna be honest about how I see Kerry's silence about abortion when he discusses how his religion informs his beliefs about social justice and caring for the poor. I don't see it as contradictory. I don't see a problem.

    Caring for strangers and one's fellow humans are good ideas that have come out of Christianity. Insisting that women carry pregnancies to term cuz God wants it, strikes me as just a misogynistic vestige of pre-Christian cultures retained in Christianity - in that it puts the responsibility of preserving/maintaining life on women and their bodies, without asking anything equivalent of men.

    I fundamentally trust a woman carrying a zygote / fetus to decide if she can care and provide for a baby. Suspect most other liberals feel similarly. Even if she's a naive teenager, I trust her more than I trust philosophizing men picking apart peoples' beliefs on this issue as though they're abstractions.

    Abortion is a private matter. Perhaps that's really why Kerry separated his policy beliefs about abortion from his policy beliefs about helping the poor.

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    TJ

    Really good stuff. Jonah you’ve delved into romanticism and the triumph of feeling over fact. I just want to point out that your lack of feeling at the snuffing out of the life of a Zygote is an expression of the triumph of feeling over fact.

    You’re super honest about how the science does point toward a zygote being a human life worthy of protection, which is fabulous. However, your lack of emotional angst at abortion at an early stage of life is irrelevant to the fact that the life of a human was taken. I’m probably not telling you anything that you don’t know, but I thought it would be worth pointing out. Part of a life of faith is living according facts when feelings don’t follow. The Pinocchio line, “let your conscience be your guide” is a romantic expression that places how I, you, or we feel about something above what reason tells us is right or wrong. We should all try to follow our conscience, except when our conscience contradicts our reason.

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    1. Photo of Jonah Goldbergcircle-angle-nib
      Jonah Goldberg vertical-nib Author

      Thanks. And I hear you. The way I reconcile my conflicting -- and I admit they are conflicting -- views on this is that as a practical political matter, prolifers should focus on where they can make progress. Deal with the low hanging fruit first and then, when all that's left is the really hard to reach stuff, we can have a debate about what and how to do what is required. I didn't agree with Bill Clinton's "safe, legal, and rare" standard, particularly in how it was implemented. But I think fighting for the rare part is more fruitful and achievable.

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        TJ

        I may be missing a piece, but it sounds like you reconcile your position in a political way (as in what should first steps be), but not in a philosophical sense.

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  4. R. James

    Cromwell was no beacon of religious liberty. He put many Irish Catholics including women and children to the sword. His infamous ethnic cleansing battle cry, "To Hell or to Connaught!", is still remembered by many people of Irish descent to the present day. Likewise, the English/British government's commitment to religious liberty from the 1640s to 1830s is very suspect considering Catholics were systematically denied civil rights. Seemingly, a blindspot for Jonah and other Anglophiles.

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    1. Avatar photo
      Cornelius O’Brien

      He pretty clearly said the opposite. He credited Cromwell with introducing freedom of conscience in England but, then said 'but not for the Catholics'. He credited Thomas Jefferson with being the first person to recognize religious freedom for all faiths, i.e., that included the Catholics.

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        Tracie

        "...neither Pagan nor Mahometan nor Jew ought to be excluded..."

        An insanely radical idea for it's time. The FFs were champions of imagination.

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    AC Kansas

    Jonah, I would be more pro-life than I understand your position, as you set forth at the beginning of this Remnant. That aside, I really enjoyed the last 20 minutes of this episode. I think an articulated debate in this country about where the moral standing for various policy positions on the Left and Right comes from would be very helpful. Perhaps even help reach a kind of culture war accommodation on some of the issues. However, I don't see any politician on either side of the aisle directly trying to set forth such a position, do you? If so, I would be interested to know who that person is. Thanks!

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      Tracie

      You don't get the faithful to the polls by saying: "We are pro-fetus but zygotes are on their own."

      Or maybe you do. Nor sure if anyone's tried it.

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  6. Avatar photo
    Adicesa14

    These ‘in the weeds’ conversations are great whether solo, or with guest(s). Thank you.

    Brave soul you are to address abortion at length. Nearly all your assertions are reasonable. Without argument, our politics, particularly Presidential elections, and Supreme Court nominations, are poisoned by the issue. That reasonable resolution has not been found after all this time is regrettable. Why? I have a guess. The issue is like ‘the right to bear arms’ in that the opposing combatants will not concede any ground because each fears the ‘slippery slope,’ and with good reason. Whenever one side of each of these arguments wins a point, they continue attacking to another point. It is a dilemma.

    Of course, there is another sticky issue you mention in your dialogue, Constitutionality. Nobody can claim that the 2nd Amendment does not grant a right to bear arms, but everybody can have an opinion regarding whether it can be regulated, and by how much. The Supreme Court has allowed some regulation. The same is true for abortion, except for a direct reference to the Constitution that does not rely on ‘penumbras, formed by emanations.’ But, as Oliver Hardy often said, ‘that’s another fine kettle of fish …’

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    Eric "Otter" Stratton

    For the record, this is not my favorite Remnant model but I whole-heartedly understand that sometimes you just got to get something out there and I didn't hate it. (I'm a big fan of the Drive-Time model.)

    Also, Taiwan is a country.

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    Dusty

    This was an excellent episode. I learned quite a bit.

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    Jake

    It's probably too close to the regular podcast to just call the supplemental episodes Remnants, yes? Seeing as it often has to do with re-examining older material, maybe Lost Remnants? Keeping with the religious references, pro-Catholic sentiment, and embrace of dogma as a good thing, maybe the Remnant Reliquary? (I may have just shown my religious ignorance)

    Whatever it is called, I will listen to every episode.

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    1. Avatar photo
      Tracie

      Notions. Since "remnant" is foremost a sewing reference in my mind.

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  10. Avatar photo
    Merrijane

    I quite enjoyed this. The space between morality as determined by religion vs. morality as determined by personal reasoning is indeed a distinction without a difference. Source doesn’t matter—you can only attempt to persuade, not force your moral code on others. Liberty means allowing everyone the agency to do good things of their own free will and not because they are told they have to.

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