Out of the Depths

Ross Douthat is back on The Remnant to discuss his new book, The Deep Places, ...

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Ross Douthat is back on The Remnant to discuss his new book, The Deep Places, a memoir of his six-year struggle with chronic illness. With numerous references to The Exorcist, Jonah and Ross take a deep dive into his ordeal, and even manage to mix in a generous amount of rank punditry on political tribalism and the conservative movement in the COVID era. Did Ross’ sickness cause him to reconsider his views on health care policy? How did he cope while enduring a period of prolonged suffering and isolation? And how has Donald Trump changed Republican politics?

Show Notes:

– Ross’ new book, The Deep Places

– Ross’ page at National Review

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  1. Avatar photo
    GlennH

    Thought this was great for a number of reasons. Most significantly, that I know several people in my orbit, both friends and family, who have suffered with Lymes. This gives some hope that there is light at the end of the tunnel, and I will recommend this book.

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    Tracie

    I was very moved by this. I work as a therapist in a nursing home rehab, mainly with the medically complex, chronically ill, and/or elderly who hospitals don't want, and who've never made any doctor feel like a god. You must be your own advocate in our system. Sounds like Douthat's book goes into some depth about that.

    Generally, we do a terrible job explaining how science and statistics inform medical care. Few acknowledge the artistry and guesswork involved in treating the ill. A tolerance for uncertainty is essential for patients and caregivers.

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  3. linda

    Hum....love Ross. Both Jonah and he are too negative about the future of conservativism. Sure. Sure. It's full of ratbastids right now. I think that is coming to an end and Trump and Q and the militias will be Gone Girl Gone along with the loud mouths on the internet who think vulgarity is hilarious.....well, maybe that's a bridge too far.

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    Ben Connelly

    Good conversation. I sincerely hope Ross is 95% better and will be 100% better soon. I confess I am a little skeptical about chronic Lyme (and I have a relative who has it, so I have empathy for the people suffering, I’m just not sure it’s cause by what they think it is). But I’m intrigued that he found solutions that made him (mostly) get better. Maybe I’ll have to read the book. I confess I’m also skeptical about the efficacy of taking cocktails of 13 different antibiotics.

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  5. Nathaniel

    Ross Douthat is my favorite. Thank you for having him on.

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    CynthiaW

    That was really interesting.

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  7. Mike Darnell

    I guess I’ll need to read Ross’s book but I was hoping to learn how his problem was eventually diagnosed, why it wasn’t earlier and is it possible that his disease was naturally on the decline when he was involved with these other non-traditional forms of treatment and his umpteenth antibiotic regimen thus creating an illusion of cause and effect?

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      Ben Connelly

      Yeah I wanted to hear more about that too. As to why it wasn’t originally diagnosed, according to the CDC, chronic Lyme doesn’t exist. Some people (including a relative of mine) say this is a “stigma” that causes most medical professionals to not diagnose it (while alternative health ones will). So people in his situation have a similar and common story.

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      1. Mike Darnell

        Ben: This from a physician friend of mine whom I shared the podcast with. I his experience Lyme disease can indeed be a chronic illness especially when not treated early and appropriately. His words: Like Covid unless we did antibody tests on everybody we’re not going to get a good idea of how many people had milder cases for example just the first phase which is a rash and recovered without it going on to becoming systemic. I did hundreds of limes antibody tests and found quite a few people around here had had only mildly symptomatic disease. They give limes vaccine to dogs now before they started doing that it occurred in up to 30% of the dogs around here. Ticks are out between the first and the last frost and everyone with an acute febrile illness with or without a history of being bitten by a tick in an area were ticks occur should be checked for both limes and rocky mountain spotted fever. Have a friend patient that got that Lonestar tick disease who is allergic to meat now. I suspect but we’re only beginning to discover how many tickborne diseases there actually are
        Amusingly enough CDC does recommend giving anyone with a history of a tick bite a course of tetracycline which I had been doing for 10 years before they made the recommendation

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          Ben Connelly

          What I wonder about “chronic Lyme” as opposed to chronic COVID, is whether the disease itself is gone but it has done some things to the body that the body can’t self-repair exactly. If that makes sense. After bad food poisoning (or a round of antibiotics), you often go for months with bad digestive problems.

          There was a recent study out of Virginia Tech that identified a protein (not a live bacteria) that stuck around inside people’s bodies after Lyme disease. I believe they think this protein is causing the problems some people experience. That wouldn’t be the same as the live disease living on in your body. And it would need a different treatment, targeted directly at the protein.

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          Ben Connelly

          Thanks. Yeah I had another friend who went through a weird meat allergy at one point - possibly due to a tick bite. Had an uncle who got Lyme but they caught it right away and after two weeks on antibiotics he was absolutely fine (even during the two weeks he seemed fine).

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    Erroll Treslan

    Listening to Jonah critique Ross’ “strategy” was worth my entire year’s Dispatch subscription. Thanks Jonah - clear, honest thinking is like a breath of fresh air, followed by the best cigar. I’ll be lighting one up in your honour this weekend in Little Havana.

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      Ben Connelly

      I read your comment snd then spent the podcast waiting for this. What do you mean? I may have zoned out during part of the podcast or something but I missed this.

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    Kevin Johnson

    Really good one. I’ve heard Ross on his illness several times, and this was the best overall chat, linking experience to bigger issues as well as to human nature and life. you hit a key moral issue in noting pro life folks showing disregard for the most vulnerable to covid.

    However, I would note others made the pandemic far worse by refusing to forthrightly address differences in risk. Smart experts early on urged special efforts to protect the most vulnerable, rather than a focus on isolating everyone, and they were attacked. Data is making it hard to deny that closing schools and masking/isolating kids was a disaster.

    , PC or wokeness prevented truth telling about obesity which could have saved lives, since “body shaming” is now worse than deadly disease. The Dispatch did far less harm than legacy media, but might have done better by including the views of experts such as Dr. Bhaticharya more prominently. Even if one ends up disagreeing, his detailed, calm arguments for more focused protection of the elderly and other vulnerable folk and less broad attempts to isolate everyone deserved serious attention. Every week we see new evidence of misdirection and even lies by “experts.” Ross’ story is more evidence of the need for skepticism and free inquiry rather than shaming of dissenters.

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      Mudskipper

      Protecting the most vulnerable while letting the rest of us go about our business sounds good in practice. In reality, I don't see how it would work. The fact is, you can't seal up the most vulnerable tight enough while the surrounding population is experiencing high rates of infection.

      Take my Dad, for example. In the course of a day, he actually is in contact with more different people than I am. There are all the assisted living staff who come in to care for him during the course of a day and the private companions/caregivers I've arranged for him to have in addition the assisted living facility staff. And then there are the home health nurses and therapists who come in on a weekly basis.

      It is impossible to isolate the elderly who live in congregate living situations. If the infection rate is high enough in the surrounding community, it WILL find its way into nursing homes, rehab facilities, and assisted living places. The only way you can really protect those folks is to isolate them as much as possible (with severe consequences to their mental health, by the way) while keeping the infection rate in the surrounding community as low as you can.

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        Erroll Treslan

        Here’s how it could have worked: for the past year, staff at long term care homes could have quarantined (while being paid, of course) for a full two weeks before starting a battery of shifts (say, 10 days in a row) and kept quarantined during that battery. They would then have been given extended leaves before starting the whole process over again. I realize this may sound crazy/unworkable at first but not when one considers the paralyzingly costs Canada (my home country) and the US sustained by shutting down their entire economies and attempting to subsidize their entire populations.

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          George.Skinner

          The problem is that I don't think the staff would agree to it. They've got the usual needs to look after families and children, and it would wreak havoc on those arrangements to have to go through extended periods of quarantine and shifts. This would be especially true for single parents.

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    Joel Stewart

    Both Lyme disease and Rocky Mountain spotted fever are serious business. My grandmother was severely ill with the latter last year.

    The best solution (in my opinion) is to attack the vectors of spread: the whitetail deer. Fill your freezer, save the world.

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