Trust the Scientism

Gender fear.

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95

Jesse Singal makes his Remnant debut to discuss his piece for The Dispatch on the Cass Review and the problem with the current consensus about gender transition treatments for children. The two debate the question of social contagion and the difficulties in reporting on “The Science.”

Show Notes:
—Jesse Singal’s piece for The Dispatch
—Hannah Barnes on Blocked and Reported
—Galileo’s Middle Finger: Heretics, Activists, and One Scholar’s Search for Justice Middle finger to Galileo
—Tics and TikTok
—Steven Pinker’s Enlightenment Now
—Coverage on the shooting of Jacob Blake
—Will Saletan’s piece for Slate on GMOs

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Comments (95)
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  1. Avatar photo
    Michael McGuire

    Having my comment on Jessie’s post being quoted at the beginning is basically an item off my bucket list. Thanks for making my day, Jonah!

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  2. Burdickka8889

    I subscribe to three entities: The Dispatch, Blocked and Reported, and The Dishcast. Now that you have achieved podcast excellence with Jesse and Jonah, can we please expect Andrew Sulivan?

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  3. Pat.Bowne

    Regarding Jonah's question about trans people who accept that gender is socially constructed, choosable, and should not constrain behavior but themselves conform to traditional gender stereotypes; ContraPoints addressed this at one point and argued that for a trans woman, at least, making sure to look unambiguously feminine is much safer.

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  4. Aahutchins

    Trivial observation here, but regarding Jonah's dislike for the "no, you won't" bit: I've gotten a kick out of it since I recognized it as a bit and came to feel like I was in on the joke. In short, I think it serves as a shibboleth for Remnant listeners. And with "shibboleth" appearing on 5 out of 6 Remnant Bingo Cards, what could be more appropriate than that the Remnant would have its very own shibboleth?

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    1. Austin from Atlanta

      Agree. I think Jonah’s hatred of the bit is itself a bit within a bit. I’ve seen commenters express genuine concern for Jonah’s displeasure as if he was truly putting himself through anguish because he’s such a slave to the audiences demand for such humor.

      Jonah has read more than enough dune to enjoy “feints within feints within feints.”

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    Trm

    This subject is of deep personal interest to me, so it is difficult to be objective. I’ve shared my family’s story with Jonah and Sarah before, and won’t publicly rehash it here. One part of this issue that I find disturbing is the extent to which people connected to my life – normal, everyday people of varying political persuasions – refuse to acknowledge it as a problem, let alone express any type of surprise that it happened. By “it”, I mean a largely untested medical protocol being allowed to spread through our country, leaning heavily on off-label use of powerful medications on minors, and some surgical interventions – on minors.

    This is particularly disturbing because it shows the extent to which people (as a statistical entity) can be trained to think in certain ways, based on institutional bias and, to some degree, an unwritten social credit system. It proves that powerful forces such as these can convince people that even something as profoundly grotesque as the permanent mutilation of children by ideological medical factories can be justified in the heads of otherwise decent people. And of course, we are seeing something similar happen with current pro-Hamas protests. I never could fully understand how Nazi Germany could happen until now (I think we are all trained to think that the German people were somehow uniquely “Germanic”, or some such nonsense).

    As for my own situation, my wife and I have been dealing with a self-diagnosed trans child for nearly five years (it’s complicated, which is more the rule than the exception in these cases – but that is another discussion). Our approach was infinite patience, avoiding all medicalization, gentle resistance, rebuilding trust, and daily affirmations that there is no rush. Growing up is difficult even in easier times, and some kids require more time, something that our educational assembly line refuses to acknowledge. I believe that most kids will grow out of this if given the chance. Not all, but most. I think most of these cases resulted from a perfect storm of the cell phone and social networking eras exiting their respective infancies. We handed our kids virtual drugs and virtual guns and said “Have fun, try to be responsible.” Yeah, right. And there have been many casualties, surprise, surprise. We need to figure that out, per Jonathan Haidt. Yet another conversation.

    Anyway, I mourn for the families, most notably ones I know personally, who allowed this fever to overcome them, and who allowed their children to be disfigured permanently. We chose the more difficult path in the short term, but I am increasingly confident that the longer term is bright, and I praise God for that hope that strengthens every day. I might not be around to see it in full bloom, but a key element of a good society is one whose members value their kids’ futures more than their own presents.Show less

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      Christopher Jenkins

      Thanks for sharing. My wife and I are in a similar boat. We have a hard time wrapping our heads around how we actually got to this place.

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      Aylene Wright

      Thanks for sharing your story. We tend to hear a lot on this issue from parents who have already accepted a role as a public spokesperson for one side or the other of the debate, and sometimes even claim to represent *all* families in the same situation. But we shouldn't forget that most parents dealing with this issue are sincerely trying to do the best they can for their children.

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        Christopher Jenkins

        You're absolutely right that most parents are trying to do the best they can for their kids, but we rely on the expertise of those in the medical field, and many of us feel misled by them.

        Additionally, there are a lot of parents that would like to be more outspoken on the issue, but doing so would destroy their relationship with their trans kid. I don't know if you've noticed, but most of the outspoken anti-gender-affirming care parents tend to be those that no longer have relationships with their trans kids. They're able to speak out because they have nothing left to lose.

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      Deb4711

      Thank you for posting that. Your anguish and your love for your child comes through, and I hope you will all have the lasting peace and happiness that you have earned.

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    4. Austin from Atlanta

      Wow, what a difficult situation. You come across as a good father who loves his child very much. I am praying for your family.

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    CynthiaW

    That was worthwhile. Mr. Singal seems pleasant. It's funny how many times one sees "Signal."

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    Marc Frischhertz

    I commented on the latest AO episode about this, but being an agnostic who subscribes to the scientific method, for a while now I have been on a political island. I began evolving from a far left liberal to a left, leaning libertarian prior to Covid. The left and right reaction to the scientific data of Covid essentially confirmed that those who wish to follow objective facts and science have no political home.

    Thank you Jonah for this episode., Given we live in a world where people cannot agree on objective facts, It’s not surprising that anytime the science goes against a particular physician, the political activist activate their disinformation machines.

    I suppose I find it surprising that the number of people who actually adhere to the proposition that we should use the scientific method to divine the best practices based on the most accurate objective facts has diminished to Such a great extent.

    That being said, even efforts to combat this phenomenon seem Off the mark and doomed to fail. For example, it seems that about 90% of the people who believe Trump actually won the 2020 election believe TikTok should be banned.

    Subscribing to or the scientific method is not an à la cart proposition. You don’t get to see the results of the experiment and then decide whether you believe it to be valid. The validity of a scientific experiment is predicated on the manner in which it is set up and the conditions under which it is performed not the result that is obtained

    We have a much greater problem in society today than TikTok. We have a choose your own facts, Choose your own reality, and choose your own truth society.

    The failure is at the upper echelon’s. The failure is among those most powerful in our society. I have long rejected any politician who claims the source of any societal problem is the most powerless among us. Don’t tell the people with the least power in society Are the source of its greatest ills.

    Until those across-the-board and positions of power start adhering to principles of truth, objective fact and the scientific method, we will not escape the predicament we are in.

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      BaltoJohn

      True, you "don’t get to see the results of the experiment and then decide whether you believe it to be valid ", but 𝘰𝘵𝘩𝘦𝘳𝘴 do, for example, the tenure committee or the peer reviewers for your paper on the results. I'd think the prudent advice for a PhD candidate or post doc who proposed a paper on gender medicine would be "don't touch that with a barge pole. It's a minefield. Even if your results are consistent with prevailing opinion, you might accidentally use some expression that a year from now is deemed offensive to some group or another."

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  8. Eoncarlyle

    Very glad that Jesse made it onto the show, love the crossover between BAR and The Dispatch

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  9. Jpliving

    Just noting because it is a common talking point for Jonah, but in talk of the cultural power of right vs. left, you really do have to include religion as likely the most impactful cultural institution in which the right has more power than the left. I'd also include the military as a institution that is more rightwing and has a lot of cultural impact.

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    1. Austin from Atlanta

      Based on party affiliation, there’s almost no rightward tilt at all to American religion and only a moderate one in the military. These effects in no way compare to the 80/20 or 90/10 ratios you see in the academy and media. That’s setting aside any analysis of if the military and religion really play the same kind of role in our discourse as news and colleges.

      https://www.pewresearch.org/religious-landscape-study/database/party-affiliation/

      https://news.gallup.com/poll/118684/military-veterans-ages-tend-republican.aspx

      https://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2014/05/survey-7-percent-of-reporters-identify-as-republican-188053

      https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Political-identification-of-college-professors-by-field_tbl1_40823273

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      1. Bobby D

        Evangelical Protestantism is a significant cultural and political force in a large chunk of the country. I’d guess that fewer than 10% of white evangelicals are Democrats.

        If you reside in the Acela corridor or on the West Coast, Jonah is correct. Otherwise, it’s not true.

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        1. Austin from Atlanta

          The Pew link above gives pretty good insight here. Across religion (or even Christianity), there is little-to-no right wing bias & it may skew leftward. If you single out only evangelicals, then it’s a 2-1 ratio, still far short of what you see in institutions that are much more directly connected to policy agenda (news and colleges.)

          To me, this is the same psychological anchoring that says it’s impossible for the media to be biased because Fox News exists. Yes, it’s possible to think of an institution in America that has a rightward tilt, but that doesn’t make the situation parallel & also conflates the roles of the institutions in dubious ways.

          Speaking as an evangelical, I go to church with plenty of democrats who value the virtue of care and think this is better reflected in the Democrat party. I can’t think of a single person at my church who is MAGA or a serious Trump supporter, though undoubtedly some will vote for him. Anecdotes & perceptions can only get us so far, which is why it’s so helpful to go off the actual data.

          If Jonah’s point is that journalists and researchers conspire (intentionally or passively) to promote a biased scientific view, saying “but conservatives go to church” feels both imprecise and like a non-sequitur. In a pluralistic society, all citizens will encounter, to some degree, sources of content that align to & oppose their values. The constant pushback in TD comments to the idea that fields objectively dominated by progressives are dominated by progressives (or whatabouting it away) always strikes me as odd. There is nothing inherent to the claim that invalidates either the institutions or progressivism. That only emerges if you think one or the other is getting the conclusions wrong.

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          1. Bobby D

            The Pew number does not break down evangelicals by race. That’s important because black and white evangelicals occupy distinct institutions. The ratio of Republicans to Democrats in white evangelical institutions is probably about 9-to1.

            Further, white evangelicals are the dominant cultural and political force in a swath that extends from East Texas to the Carolinas. The NYT has little influence on what happens in Arkansas, especially in comparison to the Southern Baptist Convention.

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    2. Pohl

      Fair point. The US military and religion, generally, certainly act as conservative anchors for society. The military is not overtly political, but it’s obviously not revolutionary. I’m less comfortable characterizing the churches as simply benign or largely of the “right,” but, yes, they aren’t revolutionary either. From space, they probably look pretty bourgeois. Fair or unfair, it’s food for thought.

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  10. Gp0121junk

    Great podcast, Jonah. As a few people mentioned, Jesse’s pod with Katie Herzog, Blocked and Reported, is very funny. There’s a long-running joke about Jesse dating a horse, which always makes me laugh. As for looking for someone to talk about climate, have you considered Alex Epstein? He looks at climate change and energy policy, and how governments make policy decisions in the name of climate change, but without regard to the negative consequences on poor people in the US and around the world.
    https://energytalkingpoints.com/

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