Sleepwalking Into Autocracy

Why Trump’s win would be the death of the republic.

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24

What would a second Trump presidency mean for American democracy? Former GOP Rep. Liz Cheney is raising the alarm in her upcoming book Oath and Honor, A Memoir and a Warning, and she joins Steve Hayes to discuss:
-Trump’s Army
-Mike Johnson’s unconstitutional turn
-Why Trump’s return to power could spell the death of the republic
-Liz for President?

Show Notes:

-Watch this episode on our YouTube channel
-Where Are All the Anti-Trump Republicans?
-Opinion | Robert Kagan: How to stop the Trump dictatorship

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Comments (24)
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  1. Runyan.Jason

    Loved the interview! I am almost finished with her audiobook and it's fantastic. I like the audiobook because in the quotes throughout they insert the actual audio of the people (and Liz when she is quoting herself). And if Trump is the nominee, whether she runs or not I will be writing her in. Last time I wrote in Mitt Romney.

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  2. P Satter

    Good interview. She is correct to point out Trump's attempts to overturn the election started long before January 6th.
    If he were re-elected, I doubt he would have all the military, whose officers and enlisted are both sworn to uphold the Constitution. However, he likely would deceive some of them and thus could create terrible chaos. Trump, like narcissists everywhere, thrives on chaos. Our country does not.
    The statement some make not to worry about Trump winning the presidency because at least the court would not let him get away with his unhinged plans, is like saying go ahead and drive the car without brakes or seatbelts--you've got airbags.
    Ms. Cheney's voice is an important one, but as a very conservative truth teller about Trump, I don't think she would have enough of a consitutency to be elected president.

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    David Chen

    Considering Trump is putting all his dark intentions for the 2nd term out in the open, if America reelects this guy - then I think we deserve to lose our country if this does prove to the the first in that fatal chain of events. How much more obvious can a corrupt leader be, and how much more worthless can an electorate be if vague feelings about "the economy" made them overlook it all?

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  4. Wstotts

    What truly scares me is that both men, Biden and Trump, are absolutely unfit for office. I don't know which man frightens me more. Cheney thinks that Trump would be able to get the military and the deep state behind him, and I think she is absolutely wrong. She talks about Trump knowing people were armed on Jan 6, but I think the weapon count was something like 5. An "Insurrection" generally does involve an armed military or militia. But the gates held, Trump did not succeed, and I don't think any future attempt would either. Biden has demonstrated that the deep state will go along with his autocratic tendencies. Note how he worked with social media providers to censor information not to his liking on Covid, and how they are more than happy to suppress conservative views. Notice how the media does his bidding in suppressing negative information regarding him, from Tara Reade to his now increasingly evident enrichment of his family with foreign entities. And every time I listen to these discussions, those who hate Trump - and I am not defending him - forget all of the wholesale changes of election procedures that happened by fiat or court decision, when all election law changes must by law go through the state legislatures, but didn't. People say the courts decided there was no "fraud," and there certainly was not the way Trump defined it, but the courts would not touch with a ten-foot-pole the question of whether those changes were legal. They refused to hear those cases, citing "standing," or other ways to dodge the bullet. Most of those cases were dismissed, not adjudicated. So again, while not agreeing, I can understand how Trump supporters view that. Under a Biden Presidency, we have an unlimited influx at our borders, with absolutely no controls, much less knowledge about, who is being allowed in. How long will it be until we have another terrorist incident, and how bad will it be? People had fits about the anti-Semites at Charlottesville, but we now have campuses and major cities overrun with people calling for "Intifada." Then there is Biden's cognitive decline happening right before our eyes. Truly, both men frighten the dickens out of me, and I can't think which one would be worse. I don't know if a third-party could succeed, but if I saw a reasonable No Labels ticket, I think that is what I would have to do.

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    1. Aaron

      I understand, that to those accustomed to treating the D's as the source of all evil, it is hard to admit that the bad guys have switched teams.

      To those who think Trump is not especially, uniquely dangerous- please make a mental list of who will be in his cabinet in 24 and get back to me.

      The fatal error of that anti anti Trump crowd is taking Trump seriously, not literally.

      Last time around Literal Trump was held back by an army of 'deep state' operatives like Mike Pence, John Kelley, and Pat Cipillone.

      This time, he will simply be a sideshow, distracting everyone from what's really happening- his presidency will be a vehicle through which Steve Bannon, Kash Patel and Tucker Carlson will take away all the nice things you used to like about America.

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    2. Markr.Mpt

      Thy name is clueless.

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      1. Wstotts

        Thank you for your thoughtful and well-reasoned response. For a discussion of the Democrat's tendencies toward authoritarianism, please read "Trump as Dictator is a Classic Case of Projection," Wall Street Journal, December 10, 2023

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        1. Markr.Mpt

          The WSJ that gave us the Mike Pence oped in 2020 saying there won't be a second wave of Covid? Or Mick Mulvaney telling us Trump would leave peacefuuly if he lost? Or gave Ronanaon Johnson a platform over and over? The WSJ editorial page that told us repeatedly how unfit Trump was in 2015-2016 and then suddenly saw the Light? Leading Bret Stephens, Bari Weiss, Sohrab Amari and a few others to walk out. That WSJ???? FWIW I was a subscriber for over 30 years. I don't like paying to have my intelligence insulted. I am willing to lay any amount of money that Biden would not unleash a mob on the congress. The idea that they are equally bad IS clueless.

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          1. Wstotts

            We could spend the next year of our lives, tit for tat, on which media resource was the most inaccurate on which President. Nonetheless, the examples stand. No, Biden will not unleash a mob, but Democrats had turned a blind eye to many, many mobs, like those opposing Kavanaugh, (Chuck Schumer actually threatened the Supreme Court. Remember "reap the whirlwind?") The Pussy Hat crowd that demonstrated before Trump had done thing one as President, the takeover of Seattle, the burning of the 3rd Precinct in Minneapolis (for which Vice President Harris contributed to a bail fund.) Again, neither of these men is fit for office, and authoritarian behavior is always in the eye of the beholder.

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    Ben Connelly

    I would totally join any new party Liz Cheney happened to start. Heck, I’d work for such a party, not that my skills would necessarily be useful.

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  6. J. Darby Ryder

    I just don't see the threat that Rep. Cheney and others see. I don't doubt her sincerity, but I am closer to the WSJ position described in the podcast. I would prefer someone other than Trump, but we will survive 4 more years of Trump if he wins.

    I do appreciate the Dispatch giving her a platform to express her views.

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      BillAZ

      Gosh, it seems to me it almost takes a real effort not to see that threat. One has to memory-hole so much of what Trump and his loyalists did and promise to do if he regains power. A fatalistic dependence on our institutions relies on the people within those institutions... and those people can be replaced. If Trump learned anything during his Administration after churning through staff and cabinet members it is to replace any impediments to his exercise of power with people personally loyal to him.

      I get the impression WSJ seems to believe that the Reagan Republican Party still exists. It doesn't. MAGA murdered it and shoved the bloody corpse under an overpass. And even if those Reagan Republicans are still there waiting to return who would trust them now after nearly eight years of excusing or caving to or hiding from Trump and his base?

      It's not that it can't happen here, it's that it is happening here. So many serious and knowledgable people are raising alarms that to not admit or recognize the danger seems like it just sets up a permission structure for another Trump Administration.

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        Kizedek

        "A fatalistic dependence on our institutions relies on the people within those institutions"

        Actually, it's worse than that. Those who support Trump, or are passive about him, and blithely say the concerns are overblown and the institutions will be effective guardrails, are actually mouthing those assurances *despite their NOT having any confidence in those institutions,* not because they depend on them. In fact, they appear to despise those institutions.

        They have already expressed their lack of faith in and dependence upon them. And they evidently think it will be OK, if not their primary goal, for Trump to dismantle/abolishe/radically alter them as he sees fit, and as and and they have pretty much promised to do.

        They are saying, "Don't worry, the institutions will protect democracy," while at the very same time saying, "We don't like this kind of democracy, we need to do something drastic about those institutions that have kept Trump and us from more power."

        They are telling us to trust something they are actively undermining. Classic authoritarian playbook. Will *they* trust those same institutions when Trump loses an election, again? They didn't last time; they don't trust elections or the courts now, and haven't for years. That's a glaring irony. How about when he's convicted of his crimes?

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          Scarlette Tarte

          Yes. What they mean when they say "trust the institutions" is that they want Trump to win and they want the changes he is going to make in those institutions.

          Those who have lived thru the rise of an autocrat will tell you "your institutions will not save you. In every case, they are captured by the autocrat and his minions".

          Trump is a huge danger to America. If you don't trust other Americans in this, trust people it has happened to, when they tell you all the signs are there.

          Or just read this book - Strongmen - from Mussolini to the Present. The author details the blueprint strongmen use to come to power, how they portray themselves as "saviors" of the nation, (Trump - only I can save America). For ours is the age of authoritarian rulers: self-proclaimed saviors of the nation who evade accountability while robbing their people of truth, treasure, and the protections of democracy. They take over our institutions and use them to protect themselves and punish their political enemies, they use masculinity as a symbol of strength and a political weapon. Taking and doing what he wants, and getting away with it, becomes proof of male authority. They use propaganda, corruption, and violence to stay in power.

          Every single time. Those that don't see that this is happening, don't WANT to see it. Everyone else sees it and feels it.

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          BillAZ

          Excellent point. Government doesn't work but it will THIS time.

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        David Chen

        As a famous dog said, "this is fine".

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    Addicus

    I disagree with Liz on almost every political position she has (except for Trump obviously). But at least I know she comes from a position of true principle and honor. From my days in the Army I evaluate every leader through the 7 Army values. Liz passes in spades.

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    Pastorfbt

    I confess to agreeing with Rep. Cheney on almost every point, but I cannot see a way in which a third party candidacy - hers or anyone else - doesn't end up helping Trump or, worse, throwing the decision to the House for a canvas of the states.
    In addition, I fear her last name alone would cost her votes with lots of folks!

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      Marianwcates

      I think a third-party candidacy has a chance to win. And Liz Cheney has the best shot of all the candidates I've heard of. Democrats in the country could vote for her if they think Trump might win. Non-Trump Republicans can support her as a Reagan conservative. I'd be delighted to vote for her.

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      1. CB76

        No Democrats in any serious numbers are going to vote for a Republican for president. And most of the Republican electorate hates her guts for betraying Trump. I can’t see how you could conclude she has any chance at all, other than your faith in her as a serious person. And that crap doesn’t win political campaigns

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        Pastorfbt

        As would I. The problem is the peculiar structure of the Electoral College procedure, and the fact that the outcome is determined by a poll of the states in the House if no one has an EC majority.

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  9. CAPotterABQ

    I’ve read in several places including MSN that universities are getting billions from Arabic sources. Will they care that doners are withholding millions?

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      Marianwcates

      Not really on topic. Jonah is looking for questions for the next Remnant ask-me-anything pod. Maybe send the question to him.

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