The Gospel Truth

Faith cheapened by ephemeral fear.

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Jonah returns to distinctly Frenchian territory on today’s Remnant, which explores the state of evangelicalism in America. His guest is Tim Alberta, a staff writer at The Atlantic and author of The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism. Tim’s new book raises an exigent question: Why are so many interpreting faith through the lens of politics instead of the other way round? Tune in to learn all about Tim’s religious journey, how Donald Trump’s relationship with the evangelical movement is changing, and why Jonah feels both ideologically homeless and secure at the same time.

Show Notes:

–Tim’s webpage

–Tim’s new book,The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism

–Tim: “My Father, My Faith, and Donald Trump”

–Tim: “Donald Trump Is on the Wrong Side of the Religious Right”

–The Remnant with Russell Moore

–Jonah: “No Movement That Embraces Trump Can Call Itself Conservative”

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  1. Joe Fisher

    I felt like this episode doxed me. Literally a pastors kid whose mom worked at the church as well and in which I entirely grew up. Had literally the same exchange and reaction with my dad that Tim did with his when discussing Trump stuff. Was always surprised when he and my brother took it personally and literally said "you taught me right from wrong"

    There's an added element here which is that we have always been evangelicals in a deep blue city in a deep blue state. There's a battle hardened element that I entirely understand. The people around us viciously hate both our faith AND our politics. So Trump causing them to openly weep in the halls of my office after his election was the first sign to me that we may get more than just good judges from Trump. Trumps presidency was a test I failed in terms of being an outstanding reflection of Christ. The snobs around us who, for our entire lives, let us know how stupid we were, suddenly had what they thought was Armageddon occurring. It's hard not to laugh at just how unhinged people in places like Seattle and Portland became, no matter how much you strive to be like Christ.

    I also grew up in a ruthless GOP that not only kicked losers to the curb, but which we aimed our animus towards for losing. We were PISSED at McCain and Romney for losing. I was the only one who kept that trend for Trump, and the irony, which I have expressed to my dad and brother, is that Trump FULLY earned his loss this time.

    The problem is that Washington state democrats have and constantly do either 1)steal elections here (Gregiore v Rossi, in which Seattle kept finding new boxes of ballots every recount until they had enough) or 2) overturn citizen initiatives that pass with massive majorities, talking 70%+, in the fully dem courts because they "think the voters were confused"

    To say nothing of how much the dems in my state reveled in stopping services during covid as best they could. The officials kept a good line, but I work with a lot of people who don't know me well, but felt free on zoom calls, in company meetings, to crack jokes about "dumb right wing evangelicals who wanted to kill everyone in the country"

    Under those circumstances, I can appreciate people who flock to someone like Trump who establish a permission structure for being apathetic about your political adversaries.

    I contain multitudes, I own 17 official variations of the MAGA hats from Trumps website because I also enjoyed the trolling. I sure don't wear them after Jan 6th though. I didn't think he could scuttle his own name as much as he did, but the thing that shocked me was that, to everyone around me I grew up with, HE DIDN'T.

    I'm still a bit befuddled to be honest.

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    1. Joe Fisher

      By the way, the hat collection is a beauty of stupid that I still laugh at, but the Trump presidency was a trove of AMAZING stupid merch. I have one of the official commemorative coins for the peace summit with the DPRK because that is HILARIOUS. I was sent random certificates denoting my leadership with in the Trump action committee (because I bought so many hats). I have a Trump/Pence 2020 face mask, which is a pretty funny icon from that election that you bet I'm saving. No question that Trump had the merchandise game down, and it made me laugh. This was also me though and my brother and dad ironically didn't succumb to this particular immaturity

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        EmmyCab

        You are a man after my own heart, Joe. I only have two Trump hats (one my parents gave me for Christmas and the other is a good-old-fashioned red MAGA hat; I bought one for myself and one for each of my parents). I never had the courage to wear them out in public (except for one time at the shooting range; I figured that was a safe space), but it still makes me giggle every time I see them smiling at my from the closet. I, too, enjoy collecting campaign memorabilia: I also have a Hillary-issued "Woman Card" (along with the weird envelope it came in which had the plastic card inside and literally nothing else; no "Get Out the Vote" message and not even a letter asking for further donations! The card entitles me to "Lower wages! No paid family leave! Limited access! to making your own reproductive health care decisions. (Varies by state.)") and a Marianne Williamson 2020 campaign t-shirt (I was mesmerized by the sound of her voice). I would never part with any of them.

        In 2020, both of my parents had to have joint replacements. I got them shirts that said "MAKE MY SHOULDER GREAT AGAIN" and "MAKE MY KNEE GREAT AGAIN." We laughed so hard, and they wore them to the hospital for their physical therapy sessions. They're in rural Texas, so the shirts were a big hit at PT, lol.

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    Judson Heartsill

    Poignant article by Tim Alberta in the Jan/Feb Atlantic.

    He is completely right. Too many evangelicals worship America. America is great, but anything you worship more than God will destroy you. A child, a career, a nation, anything.

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    Katie H

    As a Liberty alumni and resident of Lynchburg, I need to hear a non crazy person talk about my school. He almost gave me hope in just his little snippet. Please bring him back.

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  4. Bobby D

    I’m basically a creature of the Protestant mainline. But I dabbled a bit in Reformed evangelicalism when I was in my early/mid 20s.

    That was more than 20 years ago. Even then, I felt like the church I attended was a mix of faithful Christians and unconverted cultural conservatives. By my estimation, the latter cohort outnumbered the former, especially among Boomers and Silents. When I pointed this out to the faithful Christians, the realization always came to them as a surprise. They’d grown up in the evangelical movement and had simply become accustomed to this. It was easier for me to see because I was an outsider.

    This, of course, is not unique to evangelicalism. Every religious movement contains a mix of true believers and those who simply see the religion as a tool for achieving some other end. I don’t think that Trump worked any kind of radical change in people. I think Trump just exposed a fault line within the movement that many insiders had overlooked.

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      EmmyCab

      I think that is probably a very accurate assessment, Bobby. I was never one who took the position that "church is too full of hypocrites," - we *are* all imperfect - but for me the reaction to pandemic precautions by churches in my area really put a point on the extent to which politics is driving theology vs. theology driving politics right now. At least from my perspective. I think the label "Christian Nationalism" gets overused, but there is a strong strain of that in the evangelical churches here. Where I live, it's like Antivax Church over here or LGBTQ-Agenda Church over there (pick your politics), and none are a good fit for me.

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      1. Bobby D

        From what I observe, the evangelical movement is splitting along generational lines. Among those under 50, it’s the true believers who are remaining in the church and the cultural conservatives who are leaving. The younger cultural conservatives are much more attracted to the Manosphere. Among those over 50, it’s the cultural conservatives who are remaining in the church and, in many cases, demanding that the church bend orthodoxy to focus on their pet cultural issues, such as marginalizing gays. Many of the older true believers are fleeing their churches in favor of other alternatives.

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          EmmyCab

          Well, I'm 50 so... that would land me in the fulcrum position I guess. Perhaps why I've had such difficulty finding a church that "fits." I see tremendous political pressure from both the left and the right in churches. The direction it's coming from depends on the church, but it does seem like the trend is for politics to be the driving factor.

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          1. Bobby D

            I know several people at church who are about our age and said the same thing. They left their evangelical churches when their kids went away to college. They felt that they were too old for the younger churches, and too young for the older churches.

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  5. DALE Nathan SWITZER

    Bill Bennett was the one who demanded Judge Ginsberg (the Reagan Ginsberg, not RBG) have his nomination withdrawn because he once smoked marijuana in college.

    No Bill Bennett thing that a man can brag about grabbing a woman by the crotch and be qualified to be president.

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      Dsfelty

      Our 3 kids were born '91, '94, and '96. One of the books I would read with them was stories from "The book of Virtues". Loved it! B.B. now makes me feel betrayed and gives me a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach. I pray I may live long enough to again feel an optimism for our country and my (now adult) kids' future.

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  6. DALE Nathan SWITZER

    One can be wrong about Trump and still be right about Christ. Our faith is based on "Christ Alone". That some people have been led astray into the sin of idolatry is sad, but I have at times been covetous, and that is also the sin of idolatry.

    I have been wrong in the past, and will be wrong in the future (I, of course, am right on everything right now). I believe I was a Christian through all of those times. Therefore these idolaters might, also, be Christians. God knows.

    "Who art thou that judgeth another man's servant. To his own master he standeth or falleth."

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  7. Clark.Monson

    Continuing one of my longtime (personal) hobbyhorses, let's please refer to LDS (and Jehovah's Witnesses, if you like) as heretical Christians. Not "non-Christians." Both religions believe that Jesus Christ was more than a prophet--that He was the Savior of mankind and that salvation comes through Him alone by following His precepts and availing ourselves of His grace. Lots of things that are considered heretical among mainstream Christians, most notably LDS beliefs that God was not always God and rejection of the doctrine of the Trinity and JWs' Arian-adjacent beliefs about Jesus Christ's status relative to God the Father. So if you want to call that heretical and declare it thoroughly outside the mainstream, by all means, that's fair. But to call them (us) "non-Christians" is unfair and insulting.

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    1. Jeff.Oster03

      I agree, and growing up as a Christian in Mormon country, I had an obsession with pushing back against Christians who (quite often) referred to the LDS church as a "cult." I would always reply, "no, you mean it's a heresy." Now some small communities might resemble cults if they impose a high amount of social control on their members (as any community can), but that isn't the "so what" of the objection Christians have to the LDS church.

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  8. Joseph Stevens

    Why do some Christian’s think an attack on Trump is an attack on them as a person? (Paraphrasing from the discussion). IMO: Cult of personality/false idol worship. Add to that seeing Trump as a savior coming out of the Obama years when many Christians felt under attack. Trump has become a God like figure to many.

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    1. DALE Nathan SWITZER

      The phenomenon was described by CS Lewis in The Screwtape Letters.

      "The real trouble about the way your patient is thinking is that it is simply
      Christian. They all have individual interests, of course, but the bond remains
      simple Christianity. What we want, if men become Christians at all, is to keep
      them in the state of mind I call "Christianity And." You know - Christianity and
      the Crisis, Christianity and the New Psychology, Christianity and the New Order,
      Christianity and Faith Healing, Christianity and Psychical Research, Christianity
      and Vegetarianism, Christianity and Spelling Reform. If they must be Christians,
      let them at least be Christian with a difference. Substitute for the faith itself some
      Fashion with a Christian color...."

      Eventually the new Christian values this aspect of Christianity above all others, then value that thing as important as Christianity, eventually value Christianity because it supports their issue. Now, Christianity has been rendered meaningless.

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    Leo Monterosso

    I should add too that this was an outstanding interview. Tim's insight into evangelical Christianity is outstanding. Jonah provided excellent complimentary observations as well.

    I had no idea as to Tim's background previous to the book tour related to this book. He was literally in the middle of the evangelical strife related to Trump. As a like minded person, I am very much aware of the rejection that one receives for taking such stands in the church. I appreciate his courage in taking this topic on in such a straight forward manner.

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    Delenda Est

    It's all about the Friend/Enemy distinction, stupid! And the people whose deep religiosity is inflected with the political (in the Schmittian sense of the political) are especially susceptible of falling into that mindset (and dragging the rest of us down with them).

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