The Left, Right, and Religious

A life divided in two.

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Author and political reporter Jon Ward joins Steve Hayes in a revealing interview to talk about his book Testimony: Inside the Evangelical Movement That Failed A Generation. The two discuss the religious fervor that shaped today’s Christian political environment on the right.

Also, stay tuned for our first episode of “High Steaks”, a mini podcast series between Steve and Sarah on the 2024 presidential election. Dispatch members will have access to the full series, so subscribe today.

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Comments (36)
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  1. Jamesmullen

    Hope I’m posting in the right place. I listened to the Ward podcast, and because he referenced the Hugh Hewitt discussion on YouTube, I listened to that as well. Ward seems like a decent guy and I appreciate his comments on “ I don’t know.” But Hewitt asked him some basic Christian belief questions since the book was written from his POV of growing up an evangelical such as-“do you believe in hell?” And is Christ the way to salvation? Mr Ward fumbled answers about those inquires. My goodness

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  2. Russell J

    I enjoyed this conversation. I think it would be safe to have Mr Ward on the Remnant. Maybe not in the same week but soon.

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    Richshipe

    Sarah! You can't tease us with that story about prepping for the worst case scenario and not tell us how it worked out! Obviously you got the job, but how did the awkward interview go?!

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  4. Biglaw_Blues

    I think you guys need to differentiate/annotate the 1 on 1 interviews versus the normal roundtables or something for the pod btw.

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  5. Jim S

    This was a very interesting discussion.

    I found Steve’s perspective on the Tea Party very interesting. Watching from the sidelines the drift from a focus on fiscal issues to social ones seemed pretty clear. About 18 months in I remember watching coverage from the rallies, noting the signs and slogans being presented and turning to a friend and stating ‘these are just Social Conservatives with better PR’. By the point we got to Shaman Obama and Monkey Michelle and then the whole birther thing, I don’t believe anyone listening clearly would have mistaken the movement as being about fiscal issues.

    That said the GOP Establishment clearly wanted to harness the enthusiasm and channel it toward a achieving fiscal goals hence the weird confluence of Fiscal conservative groups hiring buses to haul increasingly hard core populists to Tea Party rallies. Liberal media reported this as ‘astroturfing’ which it was in a sense but the counter argument was always the genuine enthusiasm of rally participants. Of course looking back the goals of the sponsors and the goals of the participants were not necessarily aligned.

    This is really where I start to draw a straight line to the culpability of more Establishment Republicans and the rise of Trumpism. The Establishment really DID want to use the enthusiasm of these voters to achieve policy aims, but those aims were not same goals held by populists hence the backlash.

    I am admittedly cynical and simultaneously fairly disinterested ( since I am a Democrat ) but I see the current obsession with keeping Trump voters “in the tent” as doubling down on the same mistakes. You are not going to build the movement mainstream conservatives seem to desire by filling your tent with hardcore populists.

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    1. Bobby D

      This analysis makes a lot of sense. In one of Jonah’s books, he wrote that Trumpism evolved out of the failure of the Tea Party movement and the effort of those on the left to cast it as a racist/nativist phenomenon. I disagree with that explanation. The “enthusiasm” that arose on the right in 2009 was largely centered around social and cultural grievances. The GOP leadership tried to channel that enthusiasm towards fiscal conservatism. That worked at the time because the fiscal conservatism served as an effective weapon for inflicting pain on the Obama administration. But the selling point was the infliction of pain, not fiscal conservatism itself. Over time, the movement became less selective about the mode of inflicting pain.

      As you suggest, it’s better to view the Tea Party movement as an effort by establishment Republicans to divert and channel the populist enthusiasm that emerged in 2008-09 into traditional Republican goals. But the racism and nativism were key elements from the beginning. The fiscal conservatism was just window dressing. Trump got the nomination in 2016 because he dispensed with the window dressing.

      I also agree with you that the GOP is overly obsessed with finding a way to harness the social and cultural grievance that characterizes Trumpism to its benefit. Three consecutive elections prove that indulging this “enthusiasm” costs you more votes than it gets you. These folks probably only represent about 1/3 of the GOP primary electorate. In 2016, Trump didn’t win a primary by more than 50% until sometime in May, when the primary season was almost over. That’s why I think that DeSantis is gasping for air a bit. He’s spending too much time trying to cut into Trump’s support, while ignoring the concerns of the other 2/3 of the GOP primary electorate.

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      1. Jim S

        Your point about fiscal conservatism being used as a vehicle for ‘owning’ the Obama administration is very perceptive. It could be a good explanation for the crazy flip flops we see on fiscal issues whenever the GOP is in power.

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  6. Paul Konkol

    Book ordered. Growing up evangelical myself, I believe, similar to Ward, that evangelical culture primed evangelicals for Trump. The hallmarks of the culture are anti-intellectual, authoritarian, absence of accountability, blind loyalty, and many more. Bobby D on this thread gets it, too. I think we’re going to see evangelicals go three ways: 1) deeper into authoritarianism 2) denialism about the authoritarian culture 3) new churches that incorporate accountability

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    1. Bobby D

      I think we’ve already seeing 1 and 2 play out. In my former denomination, you can basically classify churches into two categories: those that are doubling down on cultural grievance and calls for authoritarian control (along with catastrophism over issues like what to do with gay Christians), and those that are in denial as to what’s happening in the rest of the denomination.

      Unfortunately, we’re not seeing 3 play out to any degree. I mainly left the PCA a few years back because the leadership of my church just wanted to stick its head in the sand concerning the fact that the Culture War had largely displaced the Gospel in many churches within the denomination. And things in the PCA have only gotten worse since. Even so, it still seems like those who oppose the move towards authoritarianism are still stuck in denialism.

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      1. Paul Konkol

        I think option 3 needs to happen for the big “C” Church to flourish. There needs to be positive, non-authoritarian churches in which people find community, learn, grow, and experience a relatively safe, healthy expression of Christ’s kingdom. I think it will probably take decades for these institutions to form, but I’d be up for helping out.

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        1. Bobby D

          I agree. But it remains surprising to me that so many leaders who oppose Option 1 are choosing Option 2 instead of Option 3. That’s true even in instances where the overwhelming majority of a church’s laity would prefer Option 3. It appears that too many leaders who are choosing Option 2 are more concerned with receiving external criticism from those pursuing Option 1 than they are in ministering to parishioners who would prefer Option 3.

          Fortunately for me, there’s a reasonably orthodox Episcopalian church near my house. I find that I can handle a sprinkle of wokeness here and there far more readily than I can handle cowardice in calling out the authoritarian (and racist, sexual, and homophobic) turn of many evangelical churches and leaders.

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          1. Paul Konkol

            I wish I was more surprised. I believe authoritarianism is so entrenched as the culture of evangelicalism that most congregants view anything else as too foreign to consider. Congregants are too familiar with having someone tell them what to do and believe that moving into responsible decision-making is too scary. But I also have a lot of hope that repeated stories of abusive authoritarianism in churches will move a lot of people to option 3. Take, for example, Michael Kruger’s book, “Bully Pulpit”. If a reformed, conservative seminary President can write a book like that - with an entire chapter on establishing accountability structures - then there is hope.

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  7. Brett

    Tech problem - I couldn't really hear this. Too quiet and very muffled. Ward sounded a little better than Steve. I don't usually have an issue. Was I the only one?

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    1. PKirch

      Yes, audio was not great. Maybe the new intern handled the production? (ha) For instance, the intro music kept playing even while Steve started introducing the guest/topic, so we missed the beginning. And then when the podcast came to an end, the closing music almost blew out my car speakers - so apparently I had cranked the volume just to hear the piece. This can't be hard to get right - no?

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      1. Brett

        I have sympathy. I imagine it is hard. That's why I like to let them know so they can fix it.

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    2. Roberte01

      Nope, very quiet for me too. This seems to be a recurring thing with Steve's audio, he needs a hotter mic and/or a mic pre with a VU meter on it so he can see where his levels are at.

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    Ben Connelly

    Good interview. And this High Steaks thing is fun.

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    Anne W (Raw5254)

    I think this is the second time (?) you’ve done this Sunday podcast! I’m really enjoying it!! I hope you’ll continue, too. Now there are two books I’d like to read, and my husband has them on our list! Thank you.

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    KLeeC

    This, was great, Steve and Jon. I'd love to hear more, because it is much more of an influence than most people seem to appreciate.

    BobbyD just posted a great outline below, so I won't elaborate, but I will go grab Jon's book!

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    1. Bobby D

      Hopefully it shows up on Audible soon, which is how I “read” most books these days.

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